00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast. I'm your host, Mark Kenyan, and this is episode number three, and today we're joined by my pale and renowned pressure land bow hunter Andy May, to break down how we'd handle some of the most challenging situations and scenarios in the deer hunting world. All right, welcome to the Wired Hunt podcast, brought to you by on X. Today in the show, due to high demand from a lot of listeners, we're doing another one of these what would you do podcasts? And the guests that we have, the guests that so many people have wanted to have for one of these is the one and only Andy May. Now most of you are probably familiar with Andy. He's been a frequent guest on the show. It's one of my best hunting buddies. But if you're new, here's the back of the baseball card stats. Andy is from Michigan. He's a dad. He's a regular nine to five kind of job guy, but he's found a way to have a level of deer hunting success that it's pretty much unparalleled, even when comparing it to a lot of folks with big farms in Iowa. For these guys that travel all over the country hunting for a living, he's getting that kind of success level, but he's doing it very differently than how those guys are. He's hunting in Michigan or on quick like long weekend type. D i Y hunts out of state when he can fit him in and it's on public land or it's on by permission ground. It's small pieces. For all these reasons and more, he's become one of the most helpful guests we've ever had in the podcast, and one of the most helpful people for me as someone to kind of be a sounding board. And he's one of the people I give a call and chat with when I'm wondering, you know, what do you think about this situation? What what do you think about that? Or he'll tell him about what he's doing. We'renna bounce ideas around d He's a great guy to talk to for those kinds of things. So it seemed like a given that we had to bring him on to run him through the what would you do gaunt with So that's what we're gonna do. I'm going to pose a series of hypothetical but detailed deer hunting scenarios to Andy, and then he's going to explain what he'd do and why he'd do it. Just that symbol. We're gonna cover everything from ideas for hunting in October, dealing with the October shift, a lot of different things around the pre rut and the rut. We cover the whole season. We cover a lot of things that can be applicable whether you hunt in Michigan or Missouri or Mississippi. So yeah, let's just get right into it without further ado. Let's find out what Andy May would do. All right, I am back with my pale, Andy May. Andy, thanks for for hopping on here again. Hey, no problem, man, it's always good to chat. It's fun. I'd like to pick your brain throughout the season, but usually it's you know, we've got ten minutes here, twenty minutes there, So it's always a treat that I can hog you for an hour, an hour and a half. I glad you can make the time for it. Yeah, well, no problem anytime. What's uh, what's the hunting season been looking like for you? We talked, I don't know a week or two ago, but what's been going on since then? As far as white tails, um, I mean it's been good. I shot down to Kentucky for a real quick hunt, um and had a really awesome hunt. I didn't shoot anything, um, but that's not to say I didn't have some opportunities at some nice dear. I saw quite a few what I thought were like two and three year old bucks. Um. And then I came really close to getting an opportunity at a real nice ten um, but swirling winds in the hills, UM, you know they got me. So he said he survived, came home empty handed, but hoping to make it back down there eventually sometime this season. UM. And then as far as you know my kind of my home turf, Michigan, northern Ohio. UM, there's a there's an old buck, real old buck that I'm I would really like to shoot in Ohio. UM. He's just a really tricky one in the area he lives and um, he roams a lot. He covers miles and um it's really open terrain, so he spends a lot of time like running those ditches and in standing corn fields and stuff. So I've been working real hard trying to narrow that down. Um. I've seen him a few times in the past, got some pictures of him, so I'm trying to kind of compile that history and then you know and read trying to find some of his sign that has you know, popped up years past and currently. And he's just gonna be a tricky one. But he's he's a really unique there. He's it's just a real big six point, like real big frame, just super cool rap. Yeah. Yeah, he see's a neat deer. So that's that's the one I would really like to get there. Um. And then in Michigan has been it's been a strange year. I I don't think I've ever scouted so hard preseason as far as like glassing and checking cramp, checking cameras and and looking for sign and just big tracks. And I have not been able to find, um, anything that I would consider mature. You know that I wanted to go after lots of two year olds. I finally found a couple of like three year old bucks. But there they're on the smaller side, so it's not really anything I'm interested in shooting. But it's just one of those years. I mean, you know, every once in a while in Michigan, I get a year like this where it just seems really thin. Um. Yeah, but it is what it is. It's early and uh, there's plenty of dolls around. So I'm just trying to stay on the search, and you know, if nothing, if I turn anything up here in the next few weeks, I gotta think there will be some good ones moving in. Um So I'm just gonna try to keep tabs on some of the areas I hunt and then move in when the timing is right. Yeah. I guess that's all you can do. Um So, you I think you know how this kind of episode goes, but a little bit different than some of our past ones. Basically, what I want to do is lay out a bunch of somewhat detailed hypothetical scenarios and then have you kind of walked through your thought process, what you'd be thinking about, what you would do in that scenario, how you would do it, uh, and so on. Um So, I kind of want to just jump into it, and I'm gonna send out a bunch of these and we just kind of see where it takes us. Um. This first one is pretty detailed, um, and and you might find it to be something you're interested in. Uh, let's start with us, Andy, what would you do if you were hunting a buck that you had history with? But he ranged over a wide area miles at times possibly, and he covered an area that had strange cover like just not allowed timber, big standing corn fields, open areas. Um. And he's hard to pin down from one section to the other section. This might sound familiar. Um, what would you what would you do in that situation if you were in mid October and you're still trying to figure him out. In that scenario, how specifically would you try to pin him down? Yeah, that sounds very familiar. That's the situation. That's the exact situation I'm in right now. I'd like to throw a softball to get started. Yeah, it's very neat, man. I've never really, I've never kind of had this much intel on a book. Um. But at the same time felt so behind the ball with killing him, um because like you said, he he I have evidence through finding his rubs, pictures and sightings of a stretch of about pretty much a triangle of areas right around two and a half miles is the too farthest points, um, you know, and that's kind of throughout the season. Um, every time I've seen him, he has been traveling either into or out of standing corn. And then I find a lot of his rubs, um along those ditches that you're talking about just a little just little flat. Uh. This this area I'm talking about was extremely flat, like a pool table. And um, those there's little drainage ditches that kind of run through some of the fields. So what I did was I already had permission on real quickly. Sorry, But these drainage drainage ditches you're talking about, how do you see him running it? Does he does he run just on the edge of the crop field up high, or does he actually run kind of down low in the ditch part way down the hill. So I've actually I actually saw this buck pop up out of the out of one of those ditches. So he will run right down the middle of them, but I've seen his rubs going along them. So a lot of these ditches, Um, the crop fields will kind of go up to the edge, but then there will be like a little buffer of kind of like tall wheaty areas, and dear will travel up and down there and every once in a while you get kind of like a bushy tree or or a you know, a good sized tree. And then I was finding, really what makes his his rubs so distinct is that he's he just shreds the tree. It looks like a banana peel, just I mean literally just bart kind of hanging like open um. And I think it's just because his antlers are so gnarly and his bases are so narrowed up. But so I'm trying to put the puzzle together, the puzzle pieces of like where his sign is, where I've had sightings, and where I've gotten pictures, and it literally, you know, in this triangle of properties, you know, two and a half mile one of one of which being public. Um. So what I did this was kind of my strategy is I basically drew this triangle of kind of his home range or at least part of it, and then I tried to ask permission on everything in between that was planted in corn this summer or had those ditches running through it. And I was able to pick up one piece. Um. So, you know, I have a few spots, even though they're small spots and they don't have much cover they're there, you know, four spots that I could potentially run into this deer. And my my strategy so far this year has been to glass every morning I can and try to see him on his feet at first light. And ironically I did that um opening day of Ohio's moost season. In the morning, it was like seven fifty and I catch a big old rack in the beans and I'm like, holy smoke. So I hit the hit the brakes on the truck and I'm glassen and it's him, and he's in a really weird spot somewhere there. I've never seen him before, and he's kind of feeding in these beans, and then all of a sudden he just lays down right in the beans and there's like this little weedy patch um. And then there's this one of those ditches I was talking about. This one has some pretty good trees, like trees you could get up and hunt out of. Um. That kind of wind through that the edge of that field and it makes actually makes like a forty five degree turn right out kind of in front of where that buck bedded. So I potentially could have gotten in a tree within seventy yards of this buck. And you know, I watched him bed down. But of course, you know, my daughter has a soccer game that day or that afternoon, um, and I gotta take her. Her mom couldn't make the game. So I mean, it's just one of those things. That was probably my best opportunity that I've had at that book. And I've known about this deer for three years now, Um, and I just couldn't hunt, but I could hunt the next day, and I just banked and hoped he was kind of in that same area and I got up in the tree that um I kind of had eyeballed, and he just wasn't there. So it's just I think it was one of those deals where he's just feeding late in the morning and he kind of got caught out in daylight and he just bedded down in a little weedy patch in the middle of beanfield. So, um, that's kind of been my strategy, is to glass and try to get an eyeball in him. But it's it's ironic you asked this question because I was just talking about it with my hunting buddies. Um, I'm kind of thinking, and I don't usually do this. I'm not a guy that over hunts a single spot at all. I mean, I really rarely hunt, you know, a spout more than one or once or twice a season. But because this deer has been so kind of sporadic in his movement. Um, there's there's two or three spots where I know he was in daylight last year throughout the season. One one spot in uh specifically it is like this little tiny thicket but had it has these like locust trees in there. Looked at the pods and he was feeding on those. But what's cool about these trees They have all these low hanging branches and this area was just scraped up. And I had him on camera three or four times in daylight throughout the season, and it was just wasn't in a certain time frame. It was like, you know, early October and then mid October, and then late October and then and then maybe one more time early November, and then I saw him a couple of times um around there too. Um just glassing and whatnot. But I'm I'm almost considering every time I got a good win just to camp out in that spot, and just it might it might that in conjunction with glassing in the mornings might be my best strategy and just hope pass cross and I'm I'm kind of getting in this rut which I don't like to do, where I'm like stuck on one deer because you know, I've done that in the past, and a lot of times it just doesn't seem like it worked out. You know, I had one buck that got poached, another one trespasser shot another one. You just lose track of them, or sometimes the deer just wins, you know, and then you you know, you wasted your whole season kind of on this one deer. I know that. Feeling well andy, yeah, but um to be honest with there, there's there's nothing else really around that I've seen. There's some nice deer, but nothing that I'm real excited to go after. So you know, I don't really mind it in this case, I guess, and if I don't get them, I don't get them. You know, it's not that big a deal. But I'm considering that it's just it's just a boring way to hunt for me. But it might be the best way for this particular buck is to just stay kind of persistent in one spot and just play that win perfect and try to put in some time. Um it reminds me of there's a guy that, um, he's been on a few podcasts lately. He'd be a great guest, by the way, but he he was. I loved his material really early on in my career. His name is Bobby Worthington. I'm trying. I'm actually pitt on the phone. We're trying to get him on the phone right now. Okay, Yeah, A phenomenal, phenomenal rut hunter, I mean just and he in his whole strategy is when he's he's often after one buck and he hunts this kind of hill country, big woods type stuff, and he threw his scouting. He tries to find the one tree that that buck passes through the most u in in his hunting area the most, the one tree or that deer will pass by more times than any other tree. And then he will literally sit daylight to dark in that same spot every time the winds right until he gets a crack at him. And I've never really thought of that as a strategy until now, until this, dear, because I've really had a hard time pinning him, don't like I've seen him day to day like a mile apart, you know, or a trail camp picture a mile and a half here, and then a trail camp picture over here, you know, a mile and a half the other way. So it's just one of those deals where that might be a sound strategy. So right now, that's kind of where I'm at with that. Now. I know you're a guy though. That's you know, talked so much about the importance of the first sit I know that something you love that has paid off for you so many times. It's hunting someplace for the very first time, and that's when you kill him. Is the reason that you think that you can get away with just camping out in the spot is the reason that might work in this situation because of the fact this dear roam so wildly widely, So it's not like you know, you might hunt four days in that spot. It could be four days in a row, but you know, three of those four days he might be a mile away, and you're just hoping that you need to hunt enough times to catch that one day out of seven when he does pass through there, and even though you were there all these days prior, you're hoping he was, so he doesn't know that you were there. He hasn't smelled you yet. Etcetera. Is that the calculus exactly. Yeah, And this this area in question is very low deer density. So I think part of the reason these deer move around so much is because the low deer numbers and low cover, so they literally have to move to be social into kind of check their core area. And I think their core areas are much larger than I initially thought when I started hunting this this type of area. But um, I really think that that might be. And I don't know that that's the actual tree that he goes by the most. It may not be. I probably don't have access to that tree, um, but I think it's the best chance I got, And I think that's what I'm gonna try to do every time I get the right wind for that, is just to put in my time in that spot. I rarely ever spook deer in that area because because of the low deer density, and if they do, they kind of they come kind of passed through, and they scrape and work those branches, and I've seen them feed on those locust pods a little bit um, but then they're gone, you know. So it's it's it's kind of one of those spots that's very low risk. Um, so I don't feel as weird about hunting it more um than someone like my other spots in Michigan where there might be more dear interesting. Yeah, okay, Well I do hope that this particular hypothetical turns out to be a real success story here soon. Um. Yeah, yeah, we'll see. Here's here's another one, um, and this one's very detailed because this is pulled from a real life example as well. Um, here's the situation. You are uh, stuck hunting a couple of locations because you are you're helping somebody hunt. You're helping someone try to get let's say this hype of it's your daughter. Let's say we're trying to kill it dear for your daughter. Will say, and you're only gonna hunt preset blinds to get your daughter. This deer a deer, And you're not super picky about you know what you're gonna shoot. You're not holding out for a four or five year old buck. You want to get a decent buck. So here's the snare. You go out and hunt a spot that's the best spot on the farm that you know of, and we're gonna say this one farm, you're hunting. You hunt your number one spot that you have a blind. It's close to a bedding area. There's some really nice small isolated food sources um. And cover that you're blind is set up and looking over in this case like a little food plot maybe um. And then there's some standing crop fields back a couple hundred yards behind you, a neighboring properties. That's your setup for the first night, and that first night works out wonderfully. Um. A bunch of deer come out. You see a bunch of bucks, but you know it doesn't pan out. You're not able to get a shot at the deer. Um. But you saw eight bucks, including several bucks that would have been shooters. No shot, And there are some deer that spook some doughs are blowing. And to get out of there that night, you had to have the field cleared out by someone coming to pick you up on an a t V. Okay, so that's what happened on night number one. A lot of activity, but there was some light spooking. Okay, you have two options for the next day. You go back to that same spot and know that yes, there was some activity, but you did still see a lot of bucks that didn't get spooked, including those couple of shooters. Um, but they were just not arrange. So you could you go back to that same place and hope for you know, yeah, there would be some impact because of what happened last night, but there's still a lot of other deer that could come through. Um, you're not being super picky. It's not like you're after just one buck. You're after one of like fifteen different you know, two year old or three year old bucks that have shown up on a camera. So that's option A or option B. You have one other blind that would work with the wind direction you have, but it's on the other side of the property that's historically not nearly as good. Um. There is a house in a yard within sight of that blind that if God forbid at last light, the neighbor decided to come out and start banging around, that could possibly impact your hunt. Um. But you do have a nice little food source that's right by betting on this side too. And you did get a shooter buck on trail camera the day before you check to sell cam, and so you've got a shooter buck that was there the night before. You had two shooter bucks at the other spot the night before. Um, But there was a little bit of negative activity there. So there's your two possible options. There's some good things going for both, there's some negative things going for both. UM, walk me through some of the things you'd be thinking about when trying to decide between these two possible options with that wind and what you would what you would lean towards. So the two shooters didn't spook in Spot A, and then you did have a shooter that recently in spot in Spot B. Yeah, there were shooters at both spots on night number one, but the but the shooters on the shooters in spot number one, we're probably lightly spooked by the a TV after dark, but they weren't spooked at all by wind or by sight or anything like that. Plus, there's just a bunch of bucks, right, there's eight bucks, and there's many other deer that have been showing up on camera over there. While in position B, not nearly as much activity on camera, not nearly as many deer, maybe one or two or three deer max from what you've seen in the past and what cameras are telling you. But you did have a shooter there that night too. Y Um. Well, you know I'd probably in this scenario, I'd probably talk about it with my daughter or the person I was with and and tell them the positives and negatives of you know, maybe each choice, and let them decide, like maybe spot b. Hey, there's a there's you know, a good one that came through here, but a lot less dear um. So there's you know, there's a chance that we might get that one, but there's also a chance we might not see much at all. Um. Or there's where we sat last night where we saw a lot of deer um, but they did get spooked. So you know, are probably our chance of success went down slightly, but there's still some chance of success there. UM. I don't know if if I was I guess if I was with my daughter, I would probably or anyone that was kind of okay with shooting, like any decent buck, I would probably stick in the area that had more of the action, um at least for one more day. Um. You know, if the if the target deer weren't spooked. I mean, my my my experiences in Michigan, if if you know, if when I spooked that target buck, I rarely get another chance at him um in that area and a lot of times I just lose track of them all together. Um. So as long as they weren't spooked, UM, I would feel confident going in there again, at least for one more sit. But the other deer that were around are probably gonna be a little more cautious, and you know, any type of mature animal will start to pick up on that. So you probably have a little short, shorter window in that spot. But I would give that up. I'd probably give that another sit if it was more dear and more entertaining to, you know, the person that was hunting. And I think that's probably why I talk about it with them and let them kind of decide. Well, this was the exact Sinaire. I was in yesterday Andy with my dad, and so I did exactly what you said that I talked through these pros and cons with my dad, and I was kind of a fifty fifty coin flip on it, thinking through exactly the same things you said were what I was thinking. UM, And I said, hey, this is the scenario. You know, I'm kind of fifty fifty. If you've got a gut, or if you've are particularly more excited about one or the other, you know, I, you know, let's let's see what you think, and and my dad kind of leaned towards probably sitting the same place that we did the night before, simply because it's a more target rich environment, which is kind of what I was thinking too, knowing that that there would be less activity, that you know, that it would be impact in some way, but maybe we could still have a decent night um, and we weren't being super picky with what we want to shoot. Yeah, so that's what we did. We went back last night and it didn't work out. We know, we went from seeing like twenty deer, including eight bucks and two definite shooters, to seeing three deer. We saw two year and a half ole bucks in a dough and that was it. So it was a it was a big change from night one to night to UM. I did not expect it to be that dramatic. I thought, I knew it wasn't gonna be as good, but I thought, you know, there might be a decent buck still that was somewhere else last night, or um, you know, there's there's plenty of other deer in the air they could roll through, but but didn't pan out. You never know exactly why partly definitely some impact from our pressure. Sometimes it could just be outside factors too, So yeah, I probably if it were just me hunting, I probably would have put one more sid in that spot and then I would go to Spot B the next day if if the wind allowed. That's probably probably what I would do, as long as the target deer didn't get spooks. But you know, I mean, I I was just talking about this with my friend Justin Wright, Uh yesterday about um he he just recently shot a really nice buck and he actually bumped it, um bumped it out of its bed early in the afternoon, around three, and then he set up over the bed that immediately and shot that buck, coming back to check out what it bumped him out. And I had never had that kind of luck here in Michigan, but I have seen that type of behavior um out of state a little less pressured, dear. So I mean, I know guys get sick of hearing it, but I've wanted a lot of states, and I I don't really it doesn't really do me any good to say, you know that our our deer here are harder to hunt. I truly believe they are, and they just they just don't get you don't get to make mistakes with these deer, and I've made plenty of them, and it's just you just no room for air. Um. So I mean, obviously, if you've got some private ground and you can control pressure a little bit, you gotta maybe a little more room. But it's, uh, it's tough. They're real, real sensitive to to change in their environment and to the pressure. For sure. Yeah that's the truth. So okay, let's let's run through some different hypotheticals that aren't tied to yours in my own situations right now. Um, but something that's tied to pressure. Let's say it's October and you're hunting one of these small properties that you hunt in Michigan that has a lot of hunters all around it. There's probably some other guys that hunt the same property that you're hunting. To you, for whatever reason, you decided to slip into some thick cover and you're hunting in there, and towards the last half hour of light, a big mature buck does step out, but he's moving quickly out of range. You try a like contact grind maybe, but no response. So now you've got one or two options. I would hypothectly say, you could either get more aggressive with your calling and try a snort wise or rattle or big buck roar or something to try to get his attention, or does that seem too aggressive for that time of year in a heavily pressured area where there's been hunters all over the place, and instead you would just let him talk because getting crazy with him probably do more harm than good. Which which of those scenarios or which are those choices would you choose? Or is there something different entirely that you would be thinking about? Yeah, if he didn't respond to just a kind of a light contact grunt, I would just let him walk and I would I would watch and see, how, you know, depending on how much daylight is left, I would see where he travels, what what what Treacy travels by, and then I would try to, um, if wind permitted, try to set up along that travel route the very next day. UM. So that time of year, I mean, things things change with you know, with different wind directions and whatnot. But there's a good chance, um that he could be betted in a very if not in the same bed, in very close proximity to where he was, especially if there's no dramatic change in wind. Um. So a lot of what I see in October are like very short, little little patterns. Okay, like, um, I'll see a good deer in an area, but often he'll be doing something similar for like very short spurt maybe two days, maybe five days, and then it's it's something else, whether it's a change due to pressure, it's a change due to um, you know, possibly changes in food, um. You know, crops coming down, acorns dropping, um. You know. There's a lot of a lot of different scenarios there that could cause like pattern changes. But that's what I've noticed, and that's how I've had my best luck with my October kills is it's quickly um, noticing these these short patterns and then trying to move in and get the job done quickly, because like if I were to in the past, there's been times where like, okay, I'm gonna wait until I get you know, a cool front, you know, maybe six seven, eight days later or something, and then the deer is completely gone, like no sightings, no pictures, no sign um. So I I like to in that scenario that you um, that you explained, I think I would definitely just kind of let him do his thing, but I would try to move in and capitalize on that the very next day. Um. And probably if probably, if I didn't get it done the next day, probably even try something similar or maybe it just lately the day after. And if I don't have a sighting or get it done, then I'm kind of back to square one. Um, maybe trying to relocate that, dear. Now, would you do anything differently if I described everything the same except for I changed the date from October to November, Yeah, would Yeah, I would definitely. Um, I would probably be a little I would give more of maybe like more of like a tending grunt or maybe more like a long drawn out grunt call. I've had good luck with that rather than just the short, little kind of contact grunts. And if he didn't respond, or if I got his attention it looked like he was somewhat interested, I would probably I would probably do some rattling. Um. I haven't had dramatic luck in Michigan with rattling, but I've killed quite a few early on with rattling, mostly two and three year old books. Um. But I wouldn't be afraid to do it that that time of year, especially if um, you know we're talking November five, It's like, uh, he he could be doing something completely different in the very next day, you know, so I wouldn't feel as confident um kind of letting him walk and move in and setting up the very next day he might still be in that area. Uh, I mean very likely what he could be. You know, it could be chasing a doll, you know, six d yards away over here in this thicket, you know. So it's just one of those deals. The timing is everything, and and what decision I would make in that scenario, I guess. So Okay, So one more iteration of that. Let's say you tried to get more aggressive with a grunt. You tried rattling, and he just kind of I was like, Matt, I'm just continuing on. He just moves off. But it's November five still, So now you just told me that you wouldn't be as confident with moving in there for the next day. But would you still do it anyways, given that scenario, would you still move over there or or what? In that case? Honestly like something like that. If I saw something like that November five, Um, say I grunted to him. No real response I rattled to him still walking away, I would be more likely to jump out of my tree at that moment and try to use terrain or cover to kind of get over to where that deer is heading. Either cut him off or get into the wood lot that he's heading into the river bottom the thicket. Um, I would probably try to move in closer to where that deer was if it's a if it's a true big buck, a target deer um, something like that in Michigan during that time frame, I have such a hard time killing a specific buck. Um during those probably November, I would say November four on um until until you get like more into like later season. I have a really hard time zooming in on a specific buck. So I would probably if that was the deer I was after, I would probably throw it all stops, and I don't know, I feel I feel I would feel more confident getting on the ground and try and do sneak in close, trying to stalk that deer um, like I said, cut him off, or even just get into that wherever he's going, Just get into that next little bit of cover and you know, just try to play the win and try to get as close as I can, I would feel way more confident with that, having um a higher chance of success than going and sitting along that travel route that he took on November five the next day. Interesting. Interesting, it's a ballsy move, Andy, ballsy move. Um. I was gonna I'm gonna fast forward a little bit because i had a question that is very related to what you just described there. Um, I'm curious how you would think through this slight adjustment on that. Let's say it's that same kind of time frame November one five, somewhere in that first week in November, and you spot a buck betted with the dough. It's late morning, let's say ten am, and you're glassing, and then you see antlers shining in the distance and you realize it's a shooter buck. Maybe you know you're not after one specific buck, but it's it's a buck that you would shoot with a dough. Uh. And You've got these different options for the rest of the day. You could waited out all day and hope that they swing by you. You could get out of your tree and try to reposition to a tree closer to where they are, or you could try to sneak in for an actual spot and stock kill on those deer while they're betted. Um. But I want to preface all this with it. It is not a super windy day. It's not really windy. It's just kind of like an average let's say five seven eight mile winds something like that. UM, walk me through that situation. Yeah, So when I see that during that time frame, unless unless I have a clear indication that I think they're kind of headed, he's pushing her my way, I'm more likely, UM, if I see them betted, I'm more likely going to get down and try to reposition as close as I can. That might mean depending on um, you know, on the train, on the food situation. It might look something like, Okay, I think that doll is gonna get up and head this way, or I think that that deer is gonna push that doll farther this way down, you know, down the cover. I might potentially try to do a ground set up or get up in a tree, you know, quickly. It might be a hundred yards from them, it could be sixty. It just depends on how quietly UM I could get into that spot. UM. The only way I would do UM a spot in stock is if they were just in that perfect spot where I could I could get close to them down wind silently within bow range. But on a real calm day, that's that's a tricky one. Unless you got like maybe like a small creek bottom or something that kind of winds through and you could you know, stay low, you know, in the water to hide your noise a little bit, and then you could pop up and be you know, maybe within bow range and then just kind of wait for them to stand and make the mistake. UM So, probably either one of those scenarios I would choose, depending on what I felt was most likely going to happen. Probably the best if you could somehow use the terrain and hide your noise, uh to get within bow range and then just sit and wait, that would probably be my number one choice. But if I didn't feel confident doing that, I would just try to determine the most likely direction of travel once they get up, and I would just try to I would just try to get elevated in a tree if possible. If not, I would just kind of set up on the ground somewhere. And I've I've I've done that same exact scenario a bunch and it definitely doesn't always work out, but I've killed a few that way. Um My biggest Michigan gun buck was killed that way. It wasn't with a bow, but I ended up shooting him at bow range. But it definitely is one of those scenarios where when you see one bedded with a dough, I think it's time to get aggressive. If they're if they're out of range and they're not gonna you're pretty confident they're not gonna come your way. I'm getting down and I'm repositioning. As long as you don't bump that dough, you're you're good to go. Because he's he's got all his attention on her. So you just have to beat that one deer. M all right, one more version of this. Let's say you do that, you reposition, you're set up, the dough gets up, and they start walking away from your new spot, and it's it's I don't know, I guess, I don't care what part of the day it is, but they're walking away. Do you throw a bunch of calls at him and try to somehow break that buck off or or or what do you do in that scenario? So this takes me back to a hunt that I had in Iowa a few years back, and there was this awesome, heavy, tight racked nine point you ended up being eleven um, but he was the main frame nine. He had some junk kickers and stuff, and he was betted with a dough, and from the opposite side, this good looking, I don't know, three or four year old big seven point comes strolling across this crp field, and that that buck that was approaching let out this this big, long, drawn out grunt, And it was so cool because the so imagine between me and the dough. The big buck was betted, the dough was betted about fifteen yards from him, and then this other one was approaching like further away from me, so he let this big, drawn out grunt, and that that big buck stood up and immediately met that other deer and started walking him off. So I think if you can, if you could somehow get in his bubble and and make some sort of challenge like that, there's a pretty good chance that he might respond. But if he's moving away from you and you're a hundred yards away, I think they just continue to move away. So again, everything, all these scenarios are situational, but I think if you could get in that bubble where he feels like he has to defend, then you've got a much better chance. What happened in that scenario is that buck met that big seven, walked him off, and then the dog got up because she was, you know, free for him, and she started running my way. So he walked that buck off. The dough comes running right under me, and then he turns around and sees the dolls running and here he comes, and then I ended up shooting him. So yeah, it was. It was a really cool, a really cool hunt in it. It I I learned there that, you know, I think if you if you can get in that bubble where they feel like they have to address you, you've got a much better chance in that scenario of getting a response. But if they're you know, a hundred yards off, moving away from you, and you're sitting there rattling and grunting, I don't think he's gonna come that far. You gotta be in close. Okay, all right, here's here's when we're gonna rewind back into October now, um, and it's it's it's quite similar to what you're dealing with in Michigan at say, Um, but let's say it's mid mid October, second week of October, and you were seeing Bucks in the summer, some good Bucks in the summer, and maybe even still into September, but it's been bligh. It's been dark since the season opened, basically as far as nothing moving in daylight. You're still seeing some Bucks, but there's some trail camera there's still some trail camera data, but it's all nighttime stuff. Um, and it's now middle of October. How would you with just that information at a high level, how would you approach the snare? Would you just stay away from your stuff and not hunt your good stuff until later in the month, or would you try to seek them out in a more aggressive fashion in mid October? I Mean, it just depends on what we're talking about here. If we're talking about you know, uh, if I'm a guy that owns my private acres and it's just me, um, you know, or maybe something smaller than that, I'm gonna be less likely to pull off something super aggressive, like you know, searching through the property. Um, if there's good dough activity and whatnot, I probably unless I had a really good, really good knowledge of of where I thought these deer were Um, I would probably wait until, you know, the action picks up like later October and kind of start hunting the dough areas. That's not really that's not really my style. I have a hard time doing that, and I don't really I don't know for me personally, I'm always kind of looking for what worth what that big buck is doing now, and if I can't find one, I'm constantly searching. And that's kind of what I'm in right now. I'm just looking for a buck that I can hunt. And there's some spots that I hunt that have good dough activity, so I do feel that those are going to pick up later in the month. But I'm not gonna sit back and do nothing. So I'm I'm trying to leave those areas alone because they're small enough where there's just not enough room, um to really like maneuver. And I don't really necessarily think there's a big buck living in there. That's I don't know about and in any of those areas, but I know they're good areas, um, So I'm just trying to let those just let the dose kind of do their thing, you know, without being bothered, and then when the action picks up, that's when I'll slip in and that's when I have really good success on those you know, first sit, second sit maybe um, when you just haven't been in there all season. But in the meantime, I'm doing tons of scouting, like more than I ever have, just trying to find a buck that I can go after now. And that's why I've been spending more time in Ohio. Actually haven't even hunted Michigan yet because I can't find a shooter buck to go after. And so in what specifically is that scouting looking like right now, Well, it's been a min of glassing. Um, I've been doing some glassing. I've been running more cameras than I ever have. I've never been a big like camera numbers guy. I've actually owned I don't know, eight or nine cameras, but I've rarely have more than like four or five out. I got them all out right now, and I'm trying to find something. Um. And then I've been doing a lot of just what I call like still hunting scouting with your bow, um, like you know, just kind of sneaking around and looking for hot sign something that indicates a mature deer, a big track, big rubs, um, you know, anything along those lines that would lead me towards an older deer that I might be able to go after. But I've just been striking out at every turn. But I'm not two worked up about it. It's just it's just one of those years where things are a little thin. But like I said, there's good dough activity and on years like that, I don't have one to go after early. Um. To me, it's just like you keep looking, but then you just wait for that, you know, a little bit closer to the run late October, you get some more action in those areas and then you just try to slip in and get the job done on a good one. Okay, how about this. Let's say we're getting a little bit later in the month, but it's not quite late late October. Let's October, and kind of like your scenario you're describing, you're not getting daylight pictures of bucks that you want to hunt. Maybe you haven't got any of these bucks you want hunt on camera yet, but you know where you think there's a buck from past years. You think this buck is still around and you know him kind of well, and a cold front hits at that time of year, a pretty a decent cold front maybe, like I don't know, low teens type temperature drop from the highs from one day to the next. Would that be enough of a trigger for you to go into one of these spots where historically this buck has been, even though you don't have pictures of him in any of those low impact spots yet, um or do you need to have something more? UM? I would probably so, Like those October cold fronts are just man, They're they're just gold. I've had some of my best hunts, UM, So I won't miss in October cold front. But I definitely want to be in an area that I have confidence in. Like I I really have a hard time hunting anything now, just kind of sitting and hoping that a big buck is in the area. I want. I need something. I need his sign, I need rubs, I need a track, I need a picture, I need a sighting. Um. But if I if I have any of that, then yes, I have the confidence to go in. I'm it's so depending on what kind of intel you have, I might hunt a bed that I've scouted, um, you know, during that time of year, especially whether a cold front, if it looks like a a bed that a mature buck has used, or um a good bed in an area where I know a mature buck is living, even though I don't have necessarily a picture of him, but in the past, you know he had been there. You know, there's a lot of times in October what I'll do is I'll just kind of bounce from bed to bed that I've scouted, even though I don't have um specific intel like a picture or a sighting. That's so I used to do a lot when I had a lot more time, but now it's like I try to be much more picky and choosy and efficient. I guess, so I don't have like all those days to just throw sits at all those beds. So I like more of a confirmation of sign, a vision the WOL or a trail camp picture to have the confidence and go in for that that hunt because I might only get like two days a week to really get after it. Um, but that that late October I've had, I mean, I'm that mid October. Anytime in October where the I've had that cold front hit, I've had such good activity, but I would still want to be had that confidence that I'm in that area where a buck that I'm after is that, So I would I would. I wouldn't just go I wouldn't just go sit anywhere I might. I mean, I might sit an observation stand in a in an area where I could see a long ways. I do that often. I mean that's when I say I'm glassing. A lot of times that's I'm in an observation stand, not necessarily expecting to kill, but expecting to are hoping to see something that I can move in on. Um. So it's not like I'm just sitting on the edge of the road. You know. Sometimes down in Ohio that's okay because it's so flat and you can see a long ways. But a lot of times I'm up in a tree somewhere, but I still want that comp It's that I'm in an area where a buck is now, um, and not just kind of hoping. I don't know if that answers the question good enough. Yeah, I know it does. It does, and I I get what you're saying. Um, what if we flip this scenario. Um, Well, let let's change the scenario a little bit more than just flipping it. Let's take that same time frame somewhere in that late teens of October, and you're doing something that I know you do often, which is go on one of these kind of short out of state trips. Maybe it's a long weekend a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday. And since things haven't been going very good in Michigan and you're struggling to find this buck in Ohio, you decide, you know what, I'm just gonna do a flyer. I'm just gonna go to Missouri maybe or Kentucky and hunt a spot I've never hunted before. But you found some public land that look decent, and I'm just gonna try it for four days. You're showing up sight unseen. I know you like to have previous scouting on a spot like this, but for some reason you didn't. Maybe it's because I told you you couldn't and you had to show upset and seen and kill a buck. Um. And let's say this is a relatively small piece of public land. I don't know, a couple hundred acres give or take. Um. It's all timber. There's some topography, some ups and downs, some ditches, some stuff like that, but relatively mono culture as far as most Lily timber, and then you have crop fields on the outside edges let's say on it's it's let's say it's a rough rectable type oval type shape with crops on neighboring properties on your north west and east, and then the road access is from the south, and you've got four days. Walk me through day one, how you would try to wrap your head around trying to find a decent buck in this kind of given all that very generic you know set up. Walk me through how you might think through this hypothetical scenario for October nineteenth ish that weekend, um, and you're trying to figure something out on this brand new place. Yeah. So, even even out of state and in an area that gets less pressure than Michigan, I mean that time frame, I still feel like you're gonna have to be You're gonna have to get close to where those bucks are bedded. Um. So if I don't have any pre scouting, I most likely would really dig deep on those maps, um looking at topo in aerial and I would probably circle um or at least drop a pin on the likely areas that I think that jump out to me that these these are probably areas to scout out and then what I would do is I would literally I would throw a stay under a saddle on, and I would have my boat, and I would scout my way in and I would check all these areas. And like I said, I hunt from I like to still hunt and kind of uh scout my way into areas like this that I don't have previous knowledge. And then I'm either I'm looking for something that's gonna tell me like this this is the spot. So I'm looking for that hot sign, these these fresh rubs, these fresh scrapes that time of year. Um, you can capitalize on that stuff. If it's in close proximity to betting now in Michigan, that you might need to be really really close because they're just not going to move as far. Are are a high pressured area. If it's slightly less pressured, you got a little more wiggle room there. Um. And I would feel like in a state like Missouri, I mean, I know they do get pressured, but I would feel confident, um, kind of just still hunting and scouting my way back into these spots, and if I see something I like, I might set up right then and there. If if it looks hot and I feel like I'm close enough to where I where I'm estimating where you know, these bucks are betted or this buck, Um, I would set up right there, and if I don't find it, I might keep still hunting all the way towards that betting and just just keep sneaking along and glassing and looking at sign. If I don't ever find anything, um, then I just go to Plan B. You know, a different spot that I marked. So I at that time of year when I would expect them to be kind of more on a bed to feed pattern and you know, maybe just starting to kind of like mark their territory a little more, um, you know, if if it's cold, even better, you know, more scraping activity, more rubbing activity. But I would really be looking for that big buck sign. And the closer it is to the betting or where I think they're betting, the the better more confident I feel about setting up on that. And if I'm seeing stuff down by the field edge, um, you know that that might tell me there's a good one in the area. But I still would like to relate back to the betting a little closer on some sort of traveler out to and from so that that's probably how I would do it. I Zach Zack Fairmall and I talked about this because we're very similar in this way that you know, when going into a new area like that outside of the rut, Like in the rut, it's it's pretty simple, like I can set up on doe betting, like likely doe betting, UM just with some quick scouting or a good funnel that just you know, connects too big pieces of cover and you could have a really good hunt just by doing that during the rut, but that time of year, UM without pre scouting. I want to be on the ground and I want to be able to read the sign kind of moving through the cover, and when I find something that says, hey, this is where I need to be, everything adds up. I'm close, you know, I'm close to these betting points, and there's good sign here. These are big rubs, there's big tracks here. This this dish crossing is really beat down. There's some big tracks, you know, something like that, something that tells me like this is the spot with only four days, I'm gonna be real aggressive. And in that scenario, it's not even that big a deal. If I if I did bump one, you know, if I if it was like some sort of like soft bump or something, I feel like I could maybe maneuver and and still have a play at that book as long as he didn't smell you. I mean, that's not what I would want to do. But if it did happen, at least okay, I got a buck that's betted up on this ridge. I mean, that's a lot more info than you then you knew beforehand. And in a lot of cases, I think in those other states you can get away with a little soft bump like that. Like my buddy, my buddy justin just pulled it off in Missouri. Um, on public land. Um, So you can do that. It's just you gotta be smart with it and don't go around necessarily trying to bump deer. I'm I'm not saying that, but that hot sign, I think, you know, just finding where those those deer are now, Um, that's really what I would focus on in that scenario. Yeah. So what about that example you just described there where you do bump one. Um. We've talked to a lot of different people who have described what they do when they bump a buck. But what would you specifically do if if you just were scouting your way in just like that and you bumped him, would you would you do the bumping dump type thing like Justin tried to do and set up right then and there, um and and assuming that's what you're gonna say you're gonna do, or if you are going to do that, talk me through exactly how you would try to pick the right tree to do that. Yeah, So, like like a soft bump, I was just typed. We were discussing it just yesterday or two days ago. Maybe, Um, a soft bump and a state that has a little bit less pressure. I am gonna if it's early in the afternoon, say say, any time between like eleven and three somewhere in there, I'm probably gonna set up down wind of where that deer was betted, and I would try to pick a tree where he's gonna you know, he's probably gonna approach that bed downwind, I would set up right then and there. If it's a soft bump, meaning he didn't really know what you were, he heard something, he kind of takes off. You hear him. He's not going a hundred miles an hour, but he takes off kind of bounds away maybe see him walking away, Um, but he doesn't necessarily get your your scent. I think if if that's the case, then I wouldn't have any confidence in in setting up there. But you got to assume that the smart hunters playing the wind as they're scouting their way in. But I would set up downwind of where that deer was betted. And from my experience, like with with scrapes and beds, like somewhere in that seventy five yard to thirty yard range, I've seen deer approach those areas downwind, somewhere in that window, you know. And it's like, you don't know exactly, but I would look somewhere in that range, preferably like on the on the farther side of that especially, you know, if they were bumped, um, and I would sit at that afternoon and if he didn't come through, I would be back there that morning. And then if if you don't get him, then I'm onto the next one. Okay, Interesting would you would you let's say that scenario is happening, you set up down wind of that spot, the bucks coming in back to the bed. It actually is kind of working out the way you wanted to. But you can see he's not going to come and range for a shot. Do you risk trying to call to him given the fact that you just bumped him a couple of hours ago and he's already on edge, or do you just wait and try again the next day or something. I would probably, Man, that's tough. Yeah, yeah, I mean a lot of that just goes to like the temperament of the deer too. I mean, I think some deer seemed to let things go more. You know, some bucks seemed seemed to kind of not be as affected by things like that. Another deer just like come out of their skin and like you know, I've I've grunted into some deer and they take off like you shot a shotgun at him, you know what I mean. So I would probably penning on how far I was away from the bed. I might just let him go to bed. I might I might stay there if I thought there's a chance he could get up later that evening, um, whether that be that same day or the or the next day, I might just stay there. I might try to get down, sneak out and readjust I mean, with with some of our mobile equipment these days, like it's it's you can get pretty good and quiet with it as far as like setting up um and taken down. You know, if you if you're feel pretty stealthier that and you're say you're you know, eight yards away or something like that, you might be able to to climb down and and readjust if you think like, hey, he's gonna get up and had had a front way. But it's all situational dependent, depending on like the terrain and the cover, the ground cover, all that stuff comes into place. So it's it's really a judgment call on that. You know, when you're you're sitting there up in that tree, you gotta kind of think about all that stuff before you make your decision. Here here's another one that you just made me think of. But what if you decide you want to make a move like that where you hunt an evening spot, you see something and you want to adjust for them next morning, when all you know, all other things being equal, when do you think is the better time to make that adjustment. Should you make the adjustment after dark that night, so you pulled on your stuff right then and try to find a spot to hang in the middle of the night while you're there, or come back in the next morning early enough to get us set up in the morning before daylight. What time are you're you're talking? Uh, yeah, let's let's say this is uh well, the scenario we were just talking through was like October nineteenth, give a takes, so let's just stick with that. Yeah. UM, well, I'm not opposed at all, and I've shot some nice deer going in blind in the morning and setting up. But I've also set up blind in the morning and then gets daylight and I can't shoot anywhere, So I don't prefer that. Um. If I can somehow pick out a location UM that evening and see a tree, UM, that would work, I might be inclined to. Um. If if I if just say that deer gets up and you see him move off the other way, I would probably be more inclined to pull my stuff down and go set my sticks or whatever right then while he's gone, and then I could hunt that in the morning. Um. If for some reason you don't feel like you can do that, for whatever reason, he's kind of stays in that betting thicket, you're not sure he's gone, I would probably be more inclined to kind of eyeball where I want to be um and then come back real early in the morning. I think you can. I've had some I've had some mid and early October hunts out of state where I've seen bucks on their feet well into late morning, and it's it's really shocking because I don't see that back home too much. But then there's been other times where I've seen bucks literally I've been set up, you know, an hour and a half before first light and you know it's just gray light, or you know, even before shooting light and you hear something walking and you look down and you see it, you know, the big buck going back to bed before it's even shooting light. So I mean, I think it's again depending on pressure, depending on terrain. Um, you know, if you're kind of in there, they're safe zone. I feel like a lot of times they'll get into those areas before daylight, but then you still have some some activity that during shooting hours where you could get it done. But regardless, the whole point is, I'd want to be set up without alerting the deer, whether that's doing it that night after he leaves or getting in there real early. But I would just want to be confident if I'm gonna go in there real early next morning. I want to be confident that that tree is going to be working. I'm its gonna work, and I'm gonna have some shooting a billy out of it. Yeah, that's the trick. It's tough to do in the dark. Um. Okay, let's push forward until late October and we're into the pre rut. It's October or somewhere in that ballpark, and we often talk about how that's one of your very that's a really good time of the year because these bucks are getting kind of ready. They're they're just about ready to explode, but they haven't necessarily left their core area chasing does all over the place. Um at least, that's kind of a generic over simplification of that time of year. So if that was that time of the year, I might be getting ready to go take a swing at some of my better spots maybe for that time of year because of that. But but and you've got to buck your after there. But the problem is that right when you're about to do that, a warm spell hits, and we're gonna get five days. The rest of October is going to be hot, like seventy degrees let's say, so, do you still try to take some kind of move in there because you know that once the first or second November hits, you just don't know where he's going to be. Or do you say, I'm not gonna blow my my chances on these warm weather days and I'm gonna wait until November and see what happens. What would you do in that scenario? So I went through UM, this was probably a year or two ago, but I went through a lot. I don't think I made it through all of them. But I sat down and I started going through all of my kills, and I was really looking at UM historical weather data, UM, and I was trying to find, you know, just basically look at some of the conditions and see if I could find some some things that stood out. And one of the things that was really interesting to me was that I had just as many kills that were above average temperatures as I did below UM. And I think that in part has to do with the allow the way I hunt deer in that that time frame of October, and I put late October in the same, uh, the same general time frame, because the deer are still you know, a lot of times in their in their more of their home range, not necessarily venturing out to run um, you know, traveling long distances. So I in that situation would definitely um move in. If it's a if it's a specific year that I'm after, I would try to really get in tight to his betting. And I love the late October or any October cold front. I love it for increased activity and you see, you tend to see better action because dear a traveling further from their beds. And that's a lot of times like um, even that first week of October we had that nice cool front and all my friends were seeing good deer and the cameras were blowing up, and you know, it was just you get get a really good activity. But that doesn't mean you can't kill them when it's seventy or eighty degrees. I mean you can. The deer will still get up out of bed and move, but it's just gonna be a lot tighter to betting. So if it's a specific deer and I have the confidence, um, and it's an area I know well, and if a deer is in that area and is he I feel like, okay, he's betted, and you know one of these three or four spots, I'm gonna dive in and hunt those spots I am during that time of year, because, like I said before, going after a specific deer throughout the month of November, I've I've just chased my tail with it. You know. I see him, you know, way out in the swamp here, and then I get a picture of him way over here. It's like I can never really catch up with that deer, and then and then he just disappears all together and it shows back up around like and in November, you know what I mean. So I think you're it's just it's such a when you're after a specific bucket's such a frustrating time. Now if he's around, you're seeing him and you're still getting pictures, that might be one of those times where I'm I might plant myself in that one tree that he goes by the most and just put in my time or all funnel that I know he travels with, and just always play the wind around that little area where he he seems to be frequenting. So it's it's it's gonna depend but that that late October time frame, warm front. I mean, I'm not gonna sit and wait. I'm not gonna sit and wait because he could be he could completely move to a different area. I've I've seen a lot bucks do that, where they will be around for you know that early October, mid October, um, maybe even in the late October, and then come rut they shift. They got a different area they go to, and then if they survive a lot of times they come back to that area more late season. And then other deer if you have everything they need, food, cover, water, um, and there's there's enough doughs there to keep them interested. I've seen them stay. So it's really going to depend on your knowledge of that deer um and your knowledge of your hunting area. Whether you can get in tight to these betting you know these betting spots. But I would, personally, I would dive in and be aggressive. For me, being aggressive has paid off um a lot. It's it's it's probably the one thing about my style of hunting that I think has helped me. I've had a lot of kills just being aggressive. But I've also you you by doing so, you you just learn more because you you're getting in there and you're mixing up, You're making some mistakes and you just are able to grow from those. So for me personally, I'm going to dive in after that book because I feel like it's gonna be really hard to to kind of narrow down. That's a lot of the reason I like to travel during that those first two weeks of November is because I it's hard for me to kill a specific buck here in Michigan during that time frame, So I'd rather just go to a state that is a little more um, maybe has a little more a few more mature deer, and then just put in my time in your typical rut spots and usually the action is better because there's you know, higher competition, more mature books, and it's just it's just a fun time to travel because I'm not after that one specific book. What's that window of time in October? Um, where you would do what you just described, get get kind of aggressive regardless of the weather. Could you if you had to pick the window, is it October one? Is that the one? Is that thirty one? Like? What if you had to pick that window where you gotta do it? Um, what would you say? That would be? Yeah? I would say you know that October through November second time frames somewhere in there. I mean, ideally, I'm hoping for a really good cold front in that time, but if it just doesn't come, I'm not gonna I'm not sitting back doing nothing. I'm I'm I'm gonna start throwing sits at these at these spots where I think the bucks are living, and I'm just gonna get in tighter. You know, the the poorer the weather is for movement, the tighter I'm gonna risk getting in closer to betting, the better it is for movement. Um, the cooler the weather, the farther back I feel comfortable city. Um, And that's that's. It may be a difference of fifty yards or a hundred yards, but that's kind of the way I look at it that time of year. Two. Um, you know, if you do know where a particular buck is bedded, or you have a good idea of two or three spots, you know, if you can find that something like a terrain funnel that leads from that bed, or a good scrape that's in close proximity that bed, that's that's the time frame to sit in those spots. And the cults shirt is the bed the better, like when you're talking about like a late October like warm front. Now, what if we take this this scenario, but we move it to that time firm when you like to travel. So let's say it's November and you're out there on one of these traveling out of state hunts and you've got your five days to hunt the rut in Iowa or wherever, and you're gonna hunt it. You did the travel, but you get this dreaded rut warm spell where you've got the seventy eight degree temperatures for that week you're you're gonna hunt. But how would you approach hunting it differently? Um, you just described to me that you would hunt closer to bedding areas in late October, But now you're in a new place. You don't maybe you don't know where specific bucks are bedded, and really that probably doesn't matter on November ten because they're chasing those around and doing that kind of thing. So how would you adjust for a really warm rut vacation? Yeah, so I ran into that that that year. That that day I shot that big um eleven point in in Iowa. It was seventy seven degrees that day, and that was November six UM. Basically what we saw was definitely a drop in overall activity, but the deer we're still running. We saw flurries of activities, you know, briefly early in the day and then late UM, and we were just really mobile, and we we found ourselves kind of gravitating towards we we're seeing more action like just in an overall thicker cover rather than like the rut funnels. Um. Not to say those couldn't pay off, but we we kind of gravitated towards we just kept pushing in closer to like dough betting essentially where there was good numbers of does, and we were still seeing activity, like even through mid day, but they just weren't like they weren't like you know, running out in the fields or crossing these big open areas or or the rout funnels that we were sitting in, like we're really really slow like mid day where in years past, like that was a really good spot to camp out all day, you know. So we found ourselves just kind of gravitating towards that thicker cover which held more more does, and then the bucks were just kind of coming in and out of there, and or we're already in there um and we had just kind of set up down windo there or kind of get in the middle of it and play the wind best we could. But that's how that's how we were both basically able to have success that year. We just kind of zeroed in on where a lot of the oh activity was as opposed to like necessarily like rut funnels, where you would expect kind of like late morning, mid day and early afternoon movement. Did you still hunt mid day or just bail on that and do something different? Yeah, that buck I shot was twelve th middle of the day. Man, that's it. It was, you know, it was so it was so funny because I went to I was down there with you know, Mike, my buddy, you've met him, and we had one vehicle, so he's I don't know how he was like four or five miles away. I'm hunting in this spot where he dropped me off, and I was ways back in I'm sitting this rot funnel. And I sat till I don't know, like eleven and I didn't see a single deer. And as I get down and it's hot, Oh, this is what happened. I was up in the tree, I didn't see a single deer. And then like not like nine thirty or ten, I hear like all this like really aggressive, like rattling, and I'm like what in the world. And I turned around and there's another hunter, probably seventy five yards for me, and he's blowing on his grunt call and he's just hammering like the biggest fight you've ever heard. And I was like, holy crap. So I was I was a little uh frustrated. Not only with that. I mean it happens, I mean he was doing his thing whatever, but I was kind of stuck there without a ride, and it was going to be in the you know, nearly eighty that day. So I actually walked down. I hiked out and there was another spot we can hunt, but it was about a mile and a half down the road. So I literally with all my stuff, all my gear full, camo, I'm just like walking down the road and I'm like cursing, you know, I'm like, oh my god, I'm sweating, I'm hating life. And um but I go to this this other spot where we knew there was a lot of deer. There, there was a lot of dos in there. It was just a harder area to hunt it because it was like so thick, a big giant, a big giant area without really any significant terrain funnels. But it was great cover. It had standing corn, it had um like really tall like set aside. It wasn't in CRP, but it was just set aside really tall weeds, and there were does and bucks kind of all over in there. And I ended up setting up along a river. UM got all the way over there. I was. I set back up. I mean, I was drenched in sweat. I was so mad. I was texting Mike. I was like this. I was so frustrated, you know. It was one of those deals. And then he's like, I know, He's like I know, man, just you just set it out, you know whatever. I was just venting, and literally it all happened like right when I got done texting him that scenario that I explained earlier, and then I just I texted. I called him. It was like ten minutes later. I called it. I just shot one. He's like, what the world are you talking about? You were just crying like a bay so um. You know, it was just all location and we were I was tucked out on the down wind side of all that thick cover, and it just so I got a little lucky because that other buck was moving through that set aside, and you know that the big buck met him, and then the doll kind of squirted my way. But you know, that's that's kind of that's always my plan. When you know, if it's during the rut and the weather's hot, I'm gonna get I'm just gonna try to get in tighter to the dos because the bucks will always be there. They won't always be traveling, you know, across fields and into the you know, uh, down those rough funnels and and whatnot when it's eighty degrees, but they're they're gonna be they're still gonna be interested in the doughs. They're still gonna rut. That's that's the fail safe. That's always the one spot you can count on. Alright, I got a couple more for you here, um November five, six seventh, somewhere in that same kind of general window, and you're hunting your your best spot, your best little rut funnel. Let's say on this chunk that you're hunting, and you're hunting this spot because there's two really good bucks are after and there might be some other deer in the general area that you don't know about, but you know that there's two really good bucks that you really would like to get a crack at, and you're after him in this spot and you're you're in this it's the spot. But one of these bucks come through, comes through, and your wind swirls or something goes wrong and he wins you. So that buck? Whin did you on November five? In your best spot? How do you adjust? Do you push through and keep hunting it the rest of that day and give another shot the next day or something because there's still at other buck you want to get a crack at, and this, for some reason you think this is that spot. Or do you say, all right, I'm screwed because this bucks he smelled me. Now I need to really rethink things. What what's what's your plan in that situation? Yeah? Um, I don't know. That's a tough one. I mean, it's on to say I could go either way. I might. I might relocate um to an area like or maybe another funnel or or downwind side of a doe betting or something like that in that same general area where I would think, you know, I'd still have a chance at both of them. Um, I might, I might be inclined to just camp out in that spot and hold out for the other book. Um, I don't know. I don't know. I could. I could go either way on that scenario, to be honest with you. UM, but I I guess my gut would tell me to put myself in an area where the other deer hasn't obviously spooked from me, and there's still a fair chance that the other buck that I haven't seen yet could could cruise through to just kind of play the percentages, probably something like that. Okay, that's that seems fair alright. One more November question. It's novem in Michigan, and let's say you are hunting in Michigan at that time period, because you do have some special slammer buck that you really want to get a crack at, and it's it's your last day. Gun season opens tomorrow. We all know that here in Michigan, and you could you could take the same snare and drop in any other state. It's the night before opening day gun season. We know the next day things are going to change. The woods are gonna get blown up by other hunters. There's a a better chance than at any other point of the year that your target buck could get killed. Um. So in this case, all things being equal, you know, how do you take that last day swing? Um? What does that hail Mary look for you? Like? What does that look like for you on the last day of both season? I mean for us it's November. I mean I don't. I don't. I I don't think that I would feel confident that I would know where that buck was betted unless I had a sighting or a picture, um, like very very recently, you know, like a sighting of him going into a thicket or something in the morning. You know, obviously I would I would move in tight, you know, get in tight and try to swing for the fences like that. But I didn't see him. I have no idea where he's at. I don't. I wouldn't have confidence of jumping in anywhere and saying I'm swinging for the fences. I probably still would do like an all day sit. Um probably either in I would probably put myself in a funnel between two betting two good dough betting areas, assuming there is one like I'm picturing, like a like a cool river bottom that has dough betting along it um, you know, in the river bends and whatnot, and you position yourself in between and you just do one all day sit um. Or if I had seen him or saw activity of him in a certain thicket where there was a good dough near go good dough numbers, I would probably jump right into the middle of that um playing the win try, you know, maybe playing the down wind side a little bit, but maybe not so much on the edge. I'd probably maybe get a little more to the interior, and I would do an all day sit um. I just wouldn't feel comfortable saying like, oh, I'm gonna jump into this betting area on Novem. You know, I think he's gonna probably most likely be locked down with a dough. UM. So tough one, A tough tough one to answer, but I guess I would. I guess I would be inclined to to pick one of those two choices. Maybe even you know, if if it's an area like um, you know, like maybe a couple of areas that similar to where you and I hunt, you can see a long ways into a good cover, might not even be a bad idea to to set up early in a spot where you can see a long ways in that good cover. Um, you might have a chance at him there, but maybe more so even just trying to get eyes on him. And I think during that time of year, he's probably, you know, like I said, going to be locked down. He's probably not going to be moving super far. Um. It's it's real, it's real tough to answer that question, but probably one of those three scenarios I would I would choose depending on location, habitat, what I could see, um, you know, and the most recent, the most recent intel I have of that of that deer. I would try to make the best decision there. Alright, Andy, you have almost made it through the what would you do? Gauntlet? We just got our kind of wrap up rapid fire questions of sorts here to end us out. Uh, here's one you've heard me ask before. I am all powerful and I'm going to take away your privileges to hunt for the next ten years. Andy, No more hunting for ten years unless you kill a mature buck in Michigan this year. And I'm only gonna give you one day to do it. You have to pick your one single day you're gonna hunt this season in Michigan to kill a mature buck, and we'll we'll give you a three year old. We'll say three is mature in Michigan. You gotta kill a three year old in Michigan. Pick the single day you think you've got the best chance, and tell me the hypothetical stand you would sit for that day. M hmm. Yeah. I go back and forth between two. So I've I've killed five big bucks on November six. I don't know what it is about that day. Um. So part of me wants to pick that one, but a lot of those have been out of state, and the other part of me wants to pick the opener. Um, it wouldn't have done me much good this year, but most years, most years I have a beat on a buck three and a half or older in again for the opener, and I feel like I have as good a chance as any, probably more so to shoot him that day, um, or somewhere in the first day or two. So I'm thinking probably I'm probably in some sort of creek bottom, and I have glass this deer coming out of a spot along that creek, and or a picture some sort of intel that that tells me that he's betted in this area, you know, a day or two before the season, and then I'm probably going to sneak along that creek down in it and pop up um as close as I can, get as close as I can, and set up HUM along that creek along that travel in the direction that I think he's going ahead. That would probably be kind of like best case scenario, like he's kind of works along this creek a certain direction to like a destination type food source or something, and I have perfect access um through the creek and then pop up on the bank and just catch him by complete surprise. Probably something like that in Michigan, I will, you know if in another state, I would say, you know, I'm glass in a secluded bean filled early and you know, I'm watching the low spots and watching the back inside corners, and I see a good buck pop out. But I just I haven't been able to capitalize that too much here in Michigan. But like, give me a state, like you know, Kentucky or something for the bow opener. I mean that that would be more of my my go to and really high, really high success rate just doing that. Yeah, all right, that sounds like a pretty good scenario. Okay, rapid fire really quick. Here one answer or one word answers Here? Does the moon matter for deer movement? Yes? Or no? Yes? Would you take a fifty yards shot at a white tail from a tree standard saddle with your bow? Yes? Or no? From a saddle stand or saddle? Um? And if it's different, tell me answer for each Oh, no, it's not different. Um. One word answer as best as you can. Yes. If you could only have one of these for the rest of your hunts, would it be rattling antlers or grunt? To which one for the rest of your life? Rattling antlers? Because I feel like I could. I feel like I could probably if I needed to in a pinch grunt with my mouth. Okay? Expandable or fixed blade broad heads I carry? Both depends on the deer like put on the fixed plates for this big boy explanable. Should you stop a buck with some kind of sound before shooting? Yes or no? Yes? Will you kill the big six in Ohio this year? Uh? Yes? Will I kill my target buck tran this year? Yes? Alright? Right answer on the last Alright, buddy, That's all I got for you. Thank you so much for taking time to do this. Hey, no problem, man, it was fun. It was fun. I'll talk to you soon, all right, Thank you, alright, and that's it. Thanks for listening. I know if you are at all like me and eating up with all this stuff, then you seriously enjoyed that conversation too. So a couple quick or my enders. Number One, we've got the white Tail Weekly newsletter from Meat Eater that I and uh that myself and Spencer put together. So make sure you are signed up for our white Tail Weekly Newsletter to get the latest white Tail content that we are publishing over there. You can find that over at the meat eater dot com. Secondly, make sure you're following me on Instagram wire to Hunt that's the handle on Instagram. I'm posting live updates for my hunts on the I G story and a lot more behind the scenes stuff. That's where you can find it. And uh, I guess that's it. So best of luck with your upcoming hunts. Have a blast out there, be safe, and until next time, stay Wired to Hunt.