00:00:02 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wire to Hunt podcast, your home for deer hunting news, stories and strategies, and now your host, Mark Kenyon. All Right, welcome to the wire Hunt podcast, brought to you by on X. As I just mentioned, we're going to continue with the format I tested out last week. So if you listen to what would John Eberhardt do? You know what to expect in this one. But today it's what would Steve Bartilla do. We've got a very different perspective on hunting, a very different set of experience, as a different approach. Um. So it makes this an interesting different way of looking at things than we have with John. Um. Steve hunts both public land and private manage land. He hunts uh, some spots that he's able to do a lot of things with. He hunts some spots where we can't do anything. Um. He I think one of my favorite things about Steve is that he's very open to other ideas. He's very open to, Hey, I don't know everything. This is the way it works for me, it might not work for you. I always find that refreshing about him. Um. But overall, most importantly, the guy is a great deer hunter, a great communicator, about what he's doing, and he talks about everything from how he would hunt, you know, with a family member on the same property who's doing crazy things, what would he do in that scenario? He answers questions about how he might approach a situation where a dope comes into heat really early, let's say mid October. What are we doing that scenario? We talk about how he might hunt in the rut when he's wondering if you changed dand locations or not, if he's gonna do it, what time of date. Those are just a couple of the hypotheticals I throw out at him, many many others. This is a long conversation, but a good one, so I don't want to spend too much time beating around the bush. Let's just get right into it. I hope you enjoy this. I guess I should preface this though, for I do that if you don't know who Steve Bartilla is, I guess I'm just kind of assuming you do because he's been on the podcast multiple times, I think three times in the past. He's great. He's a long time outdoor writer for many of the different top deer hunting publications. He's been on a number of TV shows you've probably seen him these days, and a lot of things for Deer and Deer Hunting Magazine and their shows, his television show Grown Big. He's all over the place. Um, that's I guess all you need to know before we can get into it. Now, Enjoy our conversation with Steve Bartilla, take some notes, think about how these scenarios might apply to your own hunting situation, and enjoy. All Right, folks, I'm excited to have back with us Steve Bartilla. Steve, thanks for coming back on the show. Hey, Mark, it's absolutely my pleasure and securely my honor to be able to do stuff like that. Well, hey, right back at you. I feel pretty lucky to be able to do it, to getting to chat with folks like you and pick your brains. Um, it's that time of year for a lot of folks to ramp up into August is just a steadily growing day by day rise and anticipation for the hunting season. So I know a lot of people are excited to just get their mind deep into white tail stuff. And you were one of the first people I thought of when I thought, Okay, how do we ramp up into the last part summer. You'd be a good place to start. Steve, so pressures on. We're expecting a lot. You gotta help us scratch that white tailage? Can you? Can you do it? I'll do my best, man, I'll do my bes. How how is the summer prep going for you so far? This year? Really exceptional? Um? I'm working on two long term large management projects that I've done now for years, and wow, I honestly I pinched myself every day. Things are going extremely well in those regards, and frankly, even when they aren't, it's like you're getting paid to play outside. It's like the worst day doing stuff like that. I mean, I know it's an overly used cliche and all sorts of professions, but my god, the worst day doing something like that is by far the best day I ever had working a real job over the course of my life. And I had some cool real jobs. I like, how you don't call this a real job. I do the same thing with mine. It's now, don't don't let my wife here. This isn't a real job, and it never has been. It is. It is great stuff. So you're working on these projects for other folks properties. How are your prospects looking on any of the places that you have access to this year, do you have any bucks particularly on the mind that are back and ready to go. I'll be jeez, I know this sounds cheesy, and I sure I sure thought it when I read an article about this back when I was I don't know, maybe thirty years old or so about some old time we're talking about how yeah, you know, the longer I do this stuff, the more enjoyment I get out of just watching other people enjoy nature. And that's god, I've turned into that cheesy old man. Um. I don't get me wrong. I've this is sound politically correct, and I really don't care. I really enjoy killing deer that's that that obviously need to die. They all are being utilized. I'm not talking about going into going into low population areas and just stacking them up or anything foolish like that. I as you know, most of my harvest for the last geez ten fifteen years has actually been on the dear management and the things where I'm trying to balance the population or or I'm trying to buy balance population. I'm not talking buckdoor ratios. I'm talking about balance population with the habitat, to what the habitat can support that type of stuff in, and then to truly, truly try to drive yourself insane, and you have to be a bit of a masochist to do it, to try to actually manage wild free range animals. You know, um that that stuff is actually more fun to me these days than anything else. Yeah, it's hard to explain, but I've turned into I've turned into that cheesy whole time or my friends. And I hate to tell you this, but someday I bet you that's going to be you as well. Yeah, I passed no judgment on you, because you're right, it probably will be me soon. But so, yeah, there's a whole bunch of cool dear run round out there on the managed grounds. And what I do is I split my time between hunting. Honestly, I split my time between hunting utopian hunting. Hell. I spend half my time hunting those grounds, which really don't get much better than that, um, and the other half on public land and the things that I've noticed this year, and it's actually actually, I think golden ray of hope, there's more stuff going on in public land this year than their hands been since I was a kid. Yeah, when you say that, are you basing that off of trail camera pictures of really good bucks or have you just been seeing I'm talking off and I think it's a great thing. Um, what whatever you wanna however you want to look at whatever the heck is going on in this country, do you say, I'll tell you what. A lot of people are hitting the woods and holy man, did we ever need apt because our numbers haven't been getting bigger? And that I thought is I mean, I know that's not the topic of today's conversation by any stretch, but I thought that was a golden ray of hope. It's like, yeah, it sucks when you get to your public spot and you've noticed that there's people signed back way the heck back in here now. But at the same time, it's like, wow, cool, we're actually starting to remember that we're connected to nature and that we can do these types of things. Again, very true, very true. There definitely is a resurgence of of interest in hunting those public places to people realizing that you know, there is opportunity out there. You can't get in some good hunting if you hunt smart, and that's definitely kind of rekindled a lot of excitement in people, which is which is cool to see. Yeah. Well, and for the past I mean, I probably shouldn't admit this because this doesn't make it sound as impressive when I've been dragging these bucks out of here. But for the past five ten years, really, the amount of pressure on the public grounds that I've been on and quite a bit of them, um, has been going nothing but down, So the dear quality on them generally has been going up. So in a weird way, the timing on this is kind of nice. You get a bunch of people and haven't been spending a lot of time in the woods, and they might actually have some success and they may buy a license again next year. And for as much as we do not like seeing thoset boot tracks in our in our public ground spot, if we're not seeing them, eventually we don't have public ground to hunt anymore because hunting is not legal. Yeah. Yeah, we need we need advocates and people that are part of the community, right, we need to keep throwing the ranks. You got it, well, But that let's talk some real stuff. Yeah, you mentioned you mentioned that you do hunt utopia and you hunt the public land. You've got this good mixture of these very different types of hunting, and that's kind of one of the things I want to talk about today because you have this experience managing and planning food plots and managing timber, and you know, hunting deer that you're able to watch you after year. But then you also have this experience going to public land, hiking in there, figuring it out without being able to manipulate anything. Um, those are two very different types of scenarios. And the format for our conversation today, Steve, I thought is is something I've just started testing out recently. It's it's this idea I had to try to get a new level of insight from people that maybe we've talked to in the past. They had a lot of great stuff to share, but we want to kind of scratch this deeper than the surface. And so what I want to do is present you with a bunch of different hunting scenarios. I'll sketch out of a pretty detailed situation, and then what I'd be curious to here from you is what you would do in this scenario, Why you would do it, Like, what's your thought process? And then how you would actually, you know, go forward with it. So if you're willing to go into Mark Kenyon's fun house of crazy deer hunting scenarios, that's the game plan. Here will be an absolute blast. But I am going to preface everything they say right apprint that all anybody's going to hear is one person's opinion. There's infinite ways to skin these cats, and the best way to do it is the one that works for you. But these are just but yeah, that sounds like a blast. Yeah, and um and and that's how I love about it. You're always so clear about the fact that this is just you know, your take. It's there's it's not black and white. There's lots of different ways to do it. I like that about you, Steve, So never change, okay, never change. Light life has a way of keeping me home for every time I think I got this stuff really figured out, I get served a humongous slice the humble pot. Deer hunting has a way of doing that as it should be. So some of these are going to be more private land and management focused, some of these are going to be hunting, some of these are going to be public land hunting. And and also so if I ask a question that you know initially is about your private land stuff, but you have some thoughts if this is to be on public instead, feel free to pivot that way too, and we'll just kind of see where things go. But here's here's scenario number one, Steve. Let's say you just picked up access to a lease, a small lease, um, and for whatever reason, you can't hunt most of your other old spots. You can't hunt these managed properties that you have. This is gonna be your your main spot now and you just got access to it on August, and with other plans coming up, you only have two weekends to work on it. You've got two weekends to prep it. Um. You could do some minor improvements on it, and the farmer who owns it says, hey, you can do some food plots. You can do, you know, whatever you want to do, as long as you don't mess with my crops. That's all he really cares. But just don't mess in my crops. So you've got two weekends to kind of do this last minute rush of work between August fifteen and the end of the month. What would you prioritize on the property during those two short periods of time to work on it. Um, let me hear what's your what are your thoughts there? You're gonna hate my answer, And that's what I'm gonna prioritize. Learning and what the heck that you're doing on there and that and if it takes me that, I may go ahead. I mean, if there's obviously I've never stepped foot on this fictitious ground, so there may be a metal right in the middle of it that every one of these deer either passed next to or passed through in a route to get to the farmer's grain or else elf or whatever whatever crop he's got plants or crops he's got planted out there. Okay, Um, if if I got low hanging fruit like that, I'm gonna plock it. And by that I mean, jeez, I'll just go in there and spray it and throw some throw some cereal rye down the same day I spray it, wait for the weeds to fall over, and pray for rain. And if I, hey, I'm not I'm not cash cropping here like farmer. All I'm trying to do is creating enough food to get the deer to stop by here a little bit. And if that medal is as they said, set up like that. Jeez, I'm gonna go ahead and put some licking branches around it too, because those are easy, quick things to do. And by putting those licking branches and the food, what I'm gonna try to do is I'm gonna try to make a social hub slash staging plot where even if food doesn't work out that great with all these licking branches, man, every one of these bucks wants to stop here at the local coffee shop before they had to work. Um. But mainly, what I'm going to try to do, unless there's some real low hanging fruit like that, I'm going to spend the first year trying to figure out what the heck to deer do. The biggest mistake I think we make is we got two weekends. We got to make this happen. If you don't, you need to learn what's going on there before you can go ahead and set realistic goals on what I can achieve. And once I set realistic goals on what I can achieve, I can almost always find a path forward, m a path to lead to those goals. And while you're following that path, always remain rigidly flexible because when things change, you want to change with them. You don't match what your goals are to the ground, or I'm sorry, you don't force the ground to match your goals. What you do is for me personally, I study what that you're doing. Was the habitat got for me? What doesn't that have? How are they using the topography? How can I take advantage of all of these things? If I don't know what they're doing, It's like throwing junk at the wall and hoping it sticks. And some of them probably will, but I'm going to have an awful lot of stuff to slide off that wall. Yeah, that's a great point. So so what would you let that first weekend? Then? If you go into this first weekend knowing like, okay, most of this preseason work and even most of this hunting season is going to be about just learning. This is my first year. I need to learn that first weekend of presumably scouting, could you walk me through you know what that scouting work would be? Would simply be I'm going to walk the whole thing. Would it be I'm gonna walk the edges and play some cameras. Is it going to be you'll sit out the first night in glass and then the next day you'll try to walk. I'm just curious the specifics this lease was let's call our fictitious lease forty Okay, Um, so it's big enough that I'm not probably not gonna be able to set up one spot and watch the whole darn thing. Um. The first thing I'm gonna do is I'm gonna get my hands. I'm gonna jump on Google Earth and I'm gonna bring up that property and get the aerial photography of it, and then I'm going to find a total map of it as well. And the first thing I'm going to do is study the property itself and I'm going to try to zoom out a little bit. Okay, what's this overall area? Like? Forty acres is not enough ground to truly be raising deer on this forty acres Instead, what they're doing is there. You like, what you're hoping is they're utilizing this forty acres as part of their greater home range and specifically you really hope it Mr BIG's core area. That would be really nice. But um, I'm gonna try to I'm gonna try to determine what what this property has going forward already and how it fits into the overall area now many times, but well there was a jeez and this property was re leased for a while, and what have been a glorious one to have. Um, just a little eighty acre sliver doesn't look that impressive. You go, you walk that eighty acres and oh man, there's some nice your trail is going through here, but it's really not overly impressive. And then you jump onto Google Earth and your zoom out and you see, oh, there's about five acres of timber to the south and about a thousand acres of timber to the north. And every year that goes through goes back and forth between those two chunks. September, they either have to cut across wide open farm fields and they go through your acres. Oh man, that's pretty darn speciality. But you don't know until you zoom out. Now, look, really study that area. Understand really this comes from as much as possible, become a student away tales. When you find that sign, ask why why did that buck? Why did that dough? Why did that dear do this here? And the more you ask that, the more you can start coming up with answers. Now I'm not I'm not sure, not pretending you're right all the time. But I'm telling you what, I bet you. In the right property with the right topography or cover, I bet you I can. I bet you I can hit on where they're bed and without every even stepping foot on there. And it's not because I'm some great deer whisperer by any stretch of the imagination. It's simply asking why, over and over and over and over while you find this stuff. You find that buck bet on the off season, squat down in it and look around? Why is that buck betting here? Of every place he could bet? You know, um, why is he actually traveling down the side of this point instead of right down the middle. The more you start asking, you see patterns. You see patterns pop out, and then next thing you know, you can start picking them out on aerial photos. Aerial photos and topos are always my security blanket, my first step. Then after that, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna come up with a checklist. These are the places that jumped out at me. This is where the creek runs through the property. I know that creek is a potential water source, and any flowing water is a potential travel corridor, even when it's going through timber. Um. Okay, so I want to check out that correct that meadow, Oh man, that meadow fits great. Now You've got all that nasty cover to the north, this meadows to the south, and fifty yards further south of that, so the farmer's fields. Geez, you think that's a natural staging area, it is to begin with. So I'm gonna put it on steroids. Um. And the more of those types of things I can see before I ever stepped foot on the ground, particularly on the neighboring properties, because that's when you're controlling eighty acres, those neighboring properties are gonna be a big impact on your hunting. Um. And so just initially I'm trying to get that flow. Then next what I'm gonna do is I'm even that first year, I'm I'm gonna hunt it. Although I have went ahead and the only lease I ever had I set aside for a year just because I knew the quality of deer on there was not something that I personally was interested in. I needed it needed a year. But um, that one was an extremely easy place to figure out, and I had plenty of time to figure it out before season. Um, but I will go ahead in the scenario you're talking, I have no doubt I'm gonna go ahead and set up a few stands. My primary mission, though, is going to be where can I set these stands so I can actually do a whole lot of observing, have a chance at shooting something without anything knowing I'm there. I'm not saying you're always able to pull all that off, but that is no doubt how I'm going to hunt. At the first few steps, I'll go ahead and put trail cameras. I will have an idea of how I believe the deer utilizing this ground, and then I'm going to try to pick low impact spots that I can set trail cameras up in to validate it or to tell me I'm wrong one of the two. Um, and just kind of generally take that approach. It's not to me this type of stuff. Well, it used to be, but it is no longer a race to fill that buck peg. It's actually a race to figure out this ground and how the deer use it. Because once I got that down, I'm going to be able to utilize that year after year after year after year after year. I'm going to be able to do minor improvements that are fairly darn minor. But man, does it ever take that deer flow and put it on steroids in a good way. But all of that type of stuff, for me, it don't happen unless I learned that property first. You when you talk about learning property, I'm sure part of that is trail cameras. And I'm curious this is I've got I'm gonna get myself tangled circles here. But one of the other scenarios that I wanted to bring up is one that I'm gonna layer on top of this one. Let's say we've got this lease, and here's the new SCENARIOM gonna throw at you. You want to learn, you want to figure out what deer out here. You want to figure out what these deer doings. So you want to run cameras to some degree. But this location, this state does not allow any baiting, no baiting, no minerals, no attractings, nothing like that. So you can't put a trophy rock, you can't put corn. All these things that make it much more easy to figure out what's out there. Um, we can't use it. What do you do in that scenario, Sario, I'm in in on one of the two managed properties. Mock scrapes are very nice tools for inventorying bucks on food sources. I don't care when it is. Just make that thing stick and make that make that looking branch literally stick out like a turd in a punch bowl. Put it right, smack dab in that bux nose. Put it out in that summer food plot, and you know what, they're not going to work that anywhere near as much as they're going to work them in in October. But when you're able to create that social scrape like that the year rounds I don't care what term you want to use for it. What I look at it as a communication hub where they're they're not actually not pawing the ground hardly at all, but they're working that licking branch. And what you'll notice over summer, the does end up working in the liking branches a heck of a lot more than the bucks to um. But when you get that in the right spot, you're going to end up having just about every buck in that area stop off and visit once or twice a month, just to keep up on everything else. Otherwise, think of it as thank you with it no different than bowling, you know. I mean, sure there's some stakes so while baiting and all that stuff, And I'm not trying to rip on baiters in any way, shape or form, but most of us don't bait when we're hunting. But yet somehow we're able to figure out fairly decent where those mature bucks are gonna be walking. Do with the trail camera you do, I mean just your trail camera is essentially a tree stand with somebody sitting in a seven. Now, Um, but the big the two big things that I really focus on, well three. Obviously I want to get them in spots where I will get intel, but way too much, way too much. We want to get intel on that betting area that's a hundred yards back in the woods. So we go a hundred back in the woods and slap camera on that betting area, when, huh, couldn't you get intel on that bedding area almost almost as effectively simply by setting up on the trail that leads to the betting area that dumps into that field. No, you're not getting the exact same quality of intel, but you're getting pretty darn good intel on what's going on in that bedding area, because most of the deer you're seeing enter that field off of that trail, either we're betting in there or stopped by and this is it before they came home. Really think about how can I get this intel while putting my cameras in lower impact locations. One of the biggest sins I think there is when it comes to using cameras is they're supposed to help us, not hurt us. Now, what a person can do, UM, if you have some of the louder flash cams, is go ahead and set them up off the ground, or you can even use them to your advantage. And that is UM, don't take what I'm saying wrong. I do not believe that most deer are afraid of a flash cam, or even if even a camera that clicks to end up getting used to it if it's on a mineral liquor or a small water hole or a corner pile or something like that. But now let's say that let's say that metal that we set up that staging plot in happens to be six years wide. I'm not taking a sixt year in poke with my boated ear. But what if I place that flash camera on the opposite side of that metal. It's nowhere near enough to actually scare that buck from not going in that metal again, but it tends to encourage a percentage of them to travel the other side a little bit more, and that's where my camera happens to be. That's about the only time. That's about the only scenario where I think it is acceptable for cameras too. I don't know, educate, for lack of a better term, deer, there's a situation like that. Otherwise, really think about where you're putting those cameras, and think about how you're checking them when you're checking them, all that good stuff, because geez, way too often trying to learn that ground, we end up exploding it by running our own cams. Yeah, like you said, it can sometimes be your worst enemy if you go the wrong way with it. You talked about this little meadow that we're turning into a into a little staging plot of sorts. Let's let's keep going with this scenario a little bit further. I'm gonna adjust it just a bit though. I'm going to tell you now that most of your property is relatively open. There's not a lot of great cover. There's there's some, but most of the really good betting is on your neighbors, mostly dear betting in your neighbors, and most of your farm is a couple of fingers, And then this meadow and the farmers crops you can't really do anything with. So you want to try to figure out some way to get that mature buck that's betting on the neighbors to spend a little more daytime activity or a little bit more of their time in the day on your side. And that meadow maybe is the only area you really have to work with. Let's say hypothetically, UM, would you do anything different in that case? Would you not plant that into a staging plot? Or would you still do a plot? But would you do anything else to make it more enticing? Would you add cover? Would you throw a whole bunch of different things at it? Because that's the only thing you can improve. Let's say it's year two, maybe, so you've learned a few things. You now know that most of the bucks are betting on the neighbors, etcetera, etcetera. Um, can you give me a little bit of an idea there so we got the full happy tore metal. About the best thing we can hope for from a cover standpoint is to get some dose to bed in there. Um the buck. Mr Big has betted on the neighbors for a reason. There. Either he's got a he's got a great evergreen stand down in some low land um and we're talking to northern property. Or he man, he's got that point out on the that ridge where you can see everything down below him whatever for or there's an island on the middle of their swamp. Now for whatever reason, he has got primo betting over there. And you can't touch that, um when you can't the idea of trying to get him to bed over on your ground, I mean, there's a chance you're gonna pull it off, but man, are you ever odds are really high. You're gonna work your tail off that off on that and you are not going to accomplish it. There is a reason Mr Big is betting where he is. He is Mr Big. He can go any dang place he wants out in the dear world, and he can do any darn thing he wants within the dear world because he is the man. Okay, Um, So you could rest assured there's a reason that he's actually betting where he in the various spots he does, and those reasons are because, for whatever, for whatever reason, he believes that this these are the safest places I have, whereas your doughs and fons and immature books place way more comparatively, way more importance on being close to a food source. Mr Big Scale swings hard to leave me alone in a place I feel safe. So if I know he and I'm sorry for going that deep in there, but I actually think that when it comes to management, I think that is one of the most critical critical things to grasp and that you don't go ahead and try to force your ground and your dear to your goals. You listen to what they're telling you. Then you take what they're telling you that works for you when you try to put it on steroids. Um, so we can get the dose to bed there, but really, how much if we're talking time wasting, how much time is that going to waste for Mr big just to check that little half acre thing. He's walking by it anyway, um most likely to get back and forth between bedding and food. So those looking branches share are a nice thing there aren't they. I mean, we've all watched bucks work, work, scrapes. It's not like they walk up to it and within two seconds they're on, They're they're gone. Now. They generally waste anywhere from one to five minutes, And you know is what would I do? I'm thinking so often as a game of minutes. If I can get that buck, If I can get that buck to come in one two minutes earlier, that's often all the difference I need. If the neighbors sitting on the other side of the fence, if I can waste one or two minutes of that buck's time, you know what, the odds of him catching that hunter climbing down out of his tree stand instead of the last five minutes of light with him up in it are a lot bigger. They're a lot better those going ahead and adorning that metal with licking branches. I'll tell you what. If there's if there are bigger time wasters for bucks than thickening up your woods and offering a bunch of licking branches, I'm not sure what the heck they are. Can you real quick, Sorry to interrupt, but can you elaborate on the licking branches. So I understand if there's a bunch of trees already overhanging and you can just clear our space or anath them, so it becomes a natural mox scrape. But what if we don't have those natural trees. Would you propose you know, pounding in a t post or a big wooden post and attaching limbs or okay, tell me more about that, but whatever and anything that works for some guys. They swear up and down right and left about hanging hemp ropes. You know what, that didn't work that great for me, But if it works for you, for love of Pepperoni pizza, keep doing it. Now, hang a bunch of me. Personally, what I'm doing nine times out of ten is either bending a branch down, nailan one to a tree, wiring it to a tree, or not. I actually do not work with these gentlemen in any way, shape or form. But there's this product out there called scrape stick. They went ahead and sent me a couple last year to check out. They're just a bracket that you screw or strapped to a tree and slap a slap a branch in it. I've used a couple of those last year, I've ran wires from tree to tree about big feet off the ground and hung branches from them. It doesn't matter how you skin this cap. The big thing is get that branch right in that box, nose the other, and I guarantee that you've got all sorts of people out there right now, because this isn't a question I get by far the most whenever I talk what type of branch should I use? I do not care what branch you use. It doesn't I have seen bucks literally trash trash hawthorn branches and licking branches with their three inch thorns all over the darn things. When you put that licking branch in the right spot, it almost doesn't not matter what type of branch you're using. Personal me, I tend to stick to a hardwoods just because I don't want to replace them. Um. And the other thing when it comes to mock scrapes is I suggest the first year, don't even you scent scent. If you really want to learn how to make mock scrapes, get out there the first year and just play around with licking branches. Once you get that down, Once you get that down, oh man, mock scrapes are easy because of the scent. There's nothing more than it buys me about about extra activity at these locations. But if I start by using scent, I'm going to generally get better results. And that sounds great, but no, I want I want to get I want to get my results initially. One I'm saying what I'm learning. You know, when I'm first learning how to make box scrapes sing, focus on the licking branch, forget everything else, because once you got that down, oh jeez, now now you can start playing with sense and that type of stuff and you can put your results on steroids. But you learn how to make those bucks dance with nothing but a licking branch, and the rest comes super, super easy. And what you will find is the whole key is to put that thing right in front of their nose in an area with relatively open ground cover where dear concentrate. You do that. I honestly think it's almost as simple as a deer can't help, but it's almost like a reflex. They can't help, but work that scrape. Um, I'll probably go ahead and slat, so I will on a half acre metal In that type of scenario you describe, I'm gonna have at least a dozen, at least a dozen prime licking brand to around that thing, because I want this to turn into it just a scraping. Friends. Now, I personally am gonna go ahead and slap uh making them scrape dripper and either active scrape or golden scraper hot scrape in that scrape dripper. But one of the things you learn when you're doing this stuff is about half the box love tearing into the mock scrape you you you made, about the other half, they just get really mad and they want to make one right next to you. So when you're making these mock scrapes, always always, always make sure that you don't make one minimum of two, okay, and you're gonna see your activity go up quite a bit right there. Okay. So now I've got these least dozen mock dozen looking branches on this half acre opening, I'll go ahead and very little water bucket give them one more and to come there. Um, if it's a half acre, I can't really go to nuts on trees, but i'll probably i'll probably slap in, slap in, assuming I feel good about this being a long term lease, you know, I mean, if this is going to be a lease. Then I'm not sure I'm going to have five years from now. I'm not doing this, but if I am confident it's going to be a long term I will certainly go ahead and slap in a handful of mass trees and that opening to go ahead and complement the cereal rye that I'll be planting until the soil is in good health. And once the soil is in good health, I'll go ahead and just top speed clover into there, because quite honestly, if you only have a half acre food plot, clover is tough to beat um for most places in this world. If he'll let me do some stuff in the timber, without a doubt, I will edge feather that um that food plot. And by edge feather I mean I will either hinge cut a band of about five yard wide band around the food plot on the low timber value smaller trees. UM. There's oftentimes where you're in the mature woods zone and you don't have smaller, low timber value trees. If I can, I'm gonna try. If that's the case, I'm going to try to convince them to let me do a little bit of logging for him. Maybe sell some because one of the biggest things I want to do is I want to try to thicken up that woods, and I want to thicken up around the edge of that plot so the deer that are walking through the woods fifty yards away can't see into the plot. No, there's nothing of interest there. I'm just gonna keep going to the field. Um. Then, also you mentioned that the bucks are betting on the neighbors. That means there joe up in the fence somewhere. I'm gonna find out where they're jumping the fence, and I'm gonna try to figure out if I can get to that spot without any get to that spot, hunt it, and get out without anything knowing I'm there. Because really, if I can find that spot, but I'm really going to be doing is hunting that at and assuming I can get away with it. Now, um that that it's I can get in, I can hunt it, I can get out way more often than that without the deer knowing I'm doing it. And I'll probably set up stand if there's one spot, almost certainly will set up stands on both sides of that crossing. If if I can make safe winds on both sides because really, that's where I'm planning on killing that book. I'll set up about fifty yards off that fence line, wait for him to jump the fence to head on down to that stuff, and that's where I'm gonna shoot him. It sounds like a pretty good plan, because just because it sounds great, don't I mean? I do want to pressace something. When people talk like this, it always sounds great. It does. It doesn't always work out that darn easy, though, And you know that as well as I do. It seems like too few people ever bother pointing that part out. That's it's it's it's important point. Let's let's talk a little more on the hunting side, and let's shift from a situation where you've got a small lease, you've got control of it to now let's say you've gotten permission on a property and it is a great property. It's small, but it's great. It's it's kind of like that magical eight you describe where it's between two huge chunks of timber um. You know from maybe you know some people that hunt neighboring properties. You just know that the grape vine that this is an exceptional property. Lots of really good, big mature bucks come off of this this little area here. But a family member owns the property. So you've got this family member, they own the farm. They've given you permission. But for lack of a better better term, they hunted like a knucklehead. They hunt, they don't think about when they do a lot of silly things. They go in there and push things around, and they just they do things exact opposite of the way you would want to. So here's the question, here's the scenario. Would you just avoid hunting it altogether because you know that your knucklehead cousin or uncle or whatever is going to blow it up and just make it a pain in the butt. Or do you stay to yourself. There's so much potential here. I know there's great hunting to be had. I gotta figure out some way to change what he does. Would you try to speak that, would you try to change his ways, would you try to give him some advice on how to do it better? Or finally, would you just let him do his thing and you would use his mistakes to your advantage and find a way to use his knucklehead and moves to work in your favor. Which of those three options would you choose? And why m I probably go with hybrid and make an option for if you don't mind. And that is um and that is I'm gonna I'm gonna hunt. Will I talk to him, of course. But at the same time, here's something I've learned along along. I used to consult for outfitters and it used to drive me absolutely nuts. How so darn many of these hunters. There they are before they go out in the morning, wearing their scent lock suits in the kitchen while the guys for frying bacon eggs and hash browns. And I used to just what are you guys thinking, Oh, that would drive me nuts. You've worked so hard to try to get this set up so right, and now the outfitters send him some kind of absolutely reached like the kidsen out. But wait a minute, that's their hunt, not ears. And this stuff is supposed to be fun. And if that's what's fun for those guys. If if my cousin brother's uncle's sister is really in to doing what he's doing, she's doing out there and they're having a blast, you know what, I'm sure not going to I'm sure not going to push hard if they want, if I will gladly, gladly try to help heck, virtually any hunter in this world all that genuinely wants. But I'm not gonna I'm not gonna shove it down his or her throat. Okay. What I will do, though, is I'm going to treat this just like Jesus. I mentioned that consulted for a whole bunch of outfitters. Now I was lucky. I consulted for the generally speaking, the really good ones. But still, we're really every outfitter. There's exceptions, but most outfitters these days have to follow the same script because least prices are so high and blah blah blah blah blah, profits just keep going down. They just slap these people in the same stands day after day after day after day after day, and guess what. Eventually that dough jumps the fence and something's behind it, and that's something that's behind it is pretty darn big oftentimes. Um. That's really most outfitters I know these days. That's how they stay in business, just simply by by putting putting in the time he hunters and these stands, and eventually, if that area is good enough that dough is going to jump that fence and oh yeah, Mr Big he knows, he knows the side of the fence ain't fun and I ain't a place that he should be. But oh she smells weight, who pretty not to follow her? If if if that area is that good and I don't have a spot that is as good of quality of bucks for that area, Oh, I'm hunting it. I'm gonna hunt it, and I'm gonna put in a whole bunch of time because I don't care how well you manage your property. I don't care how poorly you manage it. If Mr Big ain't there, you ain't shooting him. And Mr Big is in that area. And for as much credit as we do give Mr Big for being smart and he's no fool generally speaking, they can't act really stupid sometimes, And when he does, I want to be up in that tree to meet him. So are you are you gonna wait then for the rut? Or would you would you? Would you? Would you look at the rest of the year is kind of a waste of time and just focus on the rut time period. I'm going to at all times, I'm gonna listen to what deer telling me, and that is if I got some trail cameras out there. It's a week before season, and jeez, this buck I've got him. I've got a buck a week before season. All over, these camera are gonna be out there opening day, darn right, I am if instead all I'm getting, I'm getting great buck pitchers, man, all sorts of great buck pitchers, and they're all at eleven o'clock to four o'clock in the morning, and I'm probably probably gonna find someplace else to hunt until the run oh Les, we get a cold snamp and all of a sudden he starts cooperating. And always, always, always try to remain rigidly flexible in everything. I go in with a plan for darn near everything on how I'm going to attack this. But man, flexibility is my best friend. When I get new data, I'm going to incorporate that data into my equation and I'm going to see if it gives me a different answer, And if he gives me a different answer, I'm taking a different road. Makes sense, Yeah, you mentioned you mentioned a scenario that I actually wanted to bring up next, which is getting pictures of a mature buck leading and opening day. So let's say you've getting pictures of a mature buck leading up to opening day of the season. So let's say you've you're you're getting daylight picks of the top buck you're after over and over and over leading up to opening day, multiple picks, and during that week leading up to it, it it looks really great. But when you look at the weather forecast for the first three days of the season, it's crud like, it's hot, the wind is very subpar for the spots you would want to go to try to kill him. Um. But at the same time, you know that everyone's starting to hunt, right, Hunting pressure is gonna ramp up significantly. Maybe this is a property to other people hunt too, so you know that, hey, these other guys or my my, my cousin might start hunting. So you know you've got a balance, like the change in dear behavior that's going to happen with hunting pressure versus the benefit of of hunting early that first night but with poor conditions. What would you do? Would you still hunt opening night even with those poor conditions because he was moving daylight. He might change that after the day or two of hunting, or do you wait until you've got the right conditions, because you just you do not want to go in there with things wrong. Well, how would you think through that and what would you do? Okay? The first thing I would do is probably have four times as many stands as anybody's thinking right now. Um, just because my my philosophy on this when it comes to private grounds, my philosophy is I want I do not want to be messing around in that timber. If I'm doing on a field of edge, don't worries, but I am not messed around in that timber for anywhere from two weeks on through season unless I absolutely positively have to. And if if it involves the tree stand, that means I didn't do my job, either for myself or my client, one of the two. Um, you go ahead, and no matter how many stands, you make sure that you have every decent spot, sincerely decent spot. I'm not talking about it's okay, you could kill it here here, but every decent, truly decent, a good spot on that property you should have set up. And if it's if it is a really good spot, you should have it set up with multiple wind directions if possible. Okay, Um, it is a lot of people look at that as a pain, particularly when honestly, um, now, well, let's stick to this myself. I hunt about h I've bet of the stands that I prepped each year for myself. That's it. And a lot of people look at the extra standard. Oh man, you're working. No, no, please, please work me. I mean that just means I got a bunch of good spots to set up, and the advantages, the advantages of being able on November, forget about that December. All of a suddenly this buck showed up from nowhere, and now he's going ahead and he's betting on that need just barely over that neighbor's line. So I can't set up on that fence crossing we were talking about before. Now. But oh jeez, if I had one in this pinch down here, that would be perfect. Well, if I don't have one there already, that's my own ain't fold. And the reason that I have one there is yeah, I haven't said it one time this entire season, but you know what if that buck does show up on the oh I got to do is walk into the wood to climb up that stand, and he has no clue on there. The advantages of that are huge. Me personally, I'm going to go nuts ouder control and I'm going to hunt that box. But that's also because I believe that I can pull it off. If I didn't with an if he wind, I'm not going to do it. I'll wait until I get a good wind, because that if you don't and I hesitate. In the last five ten years, I hardly even talk about this anymore because I think I think way too many people either dismiss it out of hand or believe it but yet don't take seriously how much f it is to pull it off. When it comes to I can defeat my toast as a smell I have up until late season, I have no doubt whatsoever in my mind. But I'll tell you what, it takes a lot of work. This is not something you do in a half hour a week. You're spending forty five minutes. I spend forty five minutes every time before I go out prepping just to be able to do that. Is there anything that you're doing that's above beyond the normal. I am stargling with the most disgusting tasting stuff you've ever put in your mouth. It's a vanishing hunter, and you have to find it on the internet because they don't even sell it in stores anymore. Um. Otherwise, it's not really it's not really any one thing. It is being unbelievably thorough and meticulous. If you're bringing it out in the woods with you, it's got to be treated, period into worry. You know. That includes the glasses that are on my head as we speak now. This year I finally got smart because I had to buy new glasses and actually had a weird, stupid story. My wife accidentally bought me uh sunglasses online rather than regular ones. So I'm like, you know what, I could actually use a couple of extra pair ofs and of regular glasses. I'm gonna so this year I actually bought a pair of glasses that I use for nothing but honey. And I know that sounds so ridiculously overkill, but ab solutely, everything you bring out in the woods with you, without fail, must be treated. About eight years ago, I was scared getting winded and I couldn't figure out what the heck was going on. I knew it was something. I went ahead. I got some moisture in my bowl case and my boat case got a little funky smelling. That's all it took. And I was even sprayed my bowl every time, but obviously not getting every square inch of it. That's all I talk to get winded. I went ahead and address that, said, oh man, we're back in the game, and we were surrounded by deer again last night without getting But you have to be unbelievably meticulous your boots, think like hack, you gotta wash them out now. That grunt tube that you're blowing into all season long has so darn much back t your and it's not even funny those optics. If you don't need to bring it in the woods with you don't. If I have to go back to the truck to get my gutting gloves, a knife, and a toe rope, it's been a really good day. It's a good point. That's a good problem. Yeah exactly. Let's move forward in the month of October. One. One real quick thing though, and that the biggest place I see people falling down of all places, is they go ahead and they buy all this scent free stuff, and they take that shower and they dry off with that towel that was treated with a fabric softener and you're wiping perfume all over your darn body. Your toilet treats need to be treated every minute seriously as you're hunting stuff. And then if you've got to drive to where you're going, do not wear your hunting stuff in the vehicle where treated cold, and just to get to where to where you're going and change there all right, now, I'm done, I hear you. I try to do all that as best as I possibly can. And like you said, it's it's a chore, it's not easy, but it's it's those little details that can make all the difference. Yeah. Sure, And as I said, for for a lot of people out there, don't do it if it's not fun. Please for me personally, if I don't do this, it literally drives me nuts. Every single time the word switches just drives me insane. But anyway, anyway, I know that feeling when that one switches and your panicking. That's no fun. Um. Let's push into mid October. A lot of people, not everyone, but a lot of people are quite hesitant about hunting during mid October. There's the you know, there's all the talk of the October lull. Some people won't hunt mornings throughout most of October until later in the month because of all these things. So I want to throw a scenario. You have to see how you would approach it in that time period. It's mid October, a big cold front is hitting, so you've got that blessed cold front coming in. It's gonna drop down for maybe it's been very warm that STIPs in the seventies, it's gonna drop down to lows in the twenties and maybe even the first snow of the year. I mean exceptional. You don't have much time available to hunt though, because of I don't know, You've got to work a regular day job or family stuff going on. It's gonna keep you from being will hunt the ideal time period. So you've got two options. You can hunt the very first morning, so you have to hunt in October morning, but it's the very first morning after that coal front hits, or you could wait two days in hunting evening. Would you go right away and hunt the morning, or would you avoid the mornings and hunt later after the coal front and get that evening. I cannot do both. You can't do both because I've got a real life, and I can pull off one kitchen pant and one additional thing. Pick pick which date or which of those options you'd like to hunt, and then I'd like to hear your ideal hypothetical stand you would hunt for that scenario. Yeah, I would pick the morning and that hunted doe betting area. Why because we confuse buck running behavior with the rut all the time. They are two completely different animals. I don't care about the actual breeding days. All I care about is running buck activity. Okay, that their testosterone levels have been I am assuming we're talking the Midwest, some place midwestern points north. Okay, Um, their testosterone level has been building now for a couple of months. Okay, it's nowhere near peaking yet, but it's starting to get it's starting to get itchy time. Okay, now that cold front hits that cold I mean, I'll be honest with you. You're taking a colder than if it's seventy seventy seventy seventy for the past ten days, gimme fifty. And I'm treating at the exact fame and I'm actually more optimistic. Um, when you have a fifty degree temp drop, that can that that's intense, And when you have stuff that intense every now and then, what I think, I'm so smart, and I know it turns out to the exact opposite um, but you get in that twenty degree drop, and that is that's something special. I don't care if it's going from nine to seventy or seventy to fifty or fifty to thirty. If you had four or five plus days in a row of those high tempts at boom, the bottom falls out by ten fifty degrees, you get your tail out the woods. Because those bucks, if it's mid October, I guarantee you that they are the majority of them, are acting just like it's November five. And you think that's just simply because they've been waiting. The anticipation has been building in that that weather que gets them over the hump that they need to at least start checking them out eggs and and at the same time, there's I can all but promise you there have been a door or two bread already around there. And they're not stupid. They probably were the ones bread that did the breeding. We try so hard, and especially with the way or weather patterns are getting just stupidly whacked out, that is messing I'm telling you sometime we can have a long, long, long discussion that would borrow your audience to tears about about how this stuff has abbs so loutly positively messed up white tail patterns too. I mean, it's jeez. I'm watching I'm watching not last January, but the January before. For the first time in my life, I'm watching a mature a dobe and mounted in January, and last year I'm watching on October one, I'm watching a dear a dole stand to get bread. It is so all over the map these days, it ain't even funny. But even before now, more breeding occurs well before and well after the rout than we give a credit for. Okay, the peak rout and it gets tighter. The further north you get, it gets beer the further south to yet, because mother nature is Mother nature is a charge of enforcing positive and negative reinforcement, and the further north to get mother Nature gets really mean, um button uh, there are all jeez. I remember all the way back when I was in college working with an outfitter and him showing me what was a high eight footage at the time of a mature buck mounting a mature dough in mid September. More breeding occurs before the rut than we can after the rugh than we give it credit for. It's just that the majority of breeding occurs during this window. So I believe Mr Big already has had at least the smell of this stuff his testosterone in his building. He's been around the block more than once. He understands that some doos are going to come in early, most of them are going to come in on time, some of them are going to come in a little bit late. And oh then we got the doll farms coming. None of this is new to him. Okay, So when that temp drop occurs, with all that other stuff going on, I I it seems as if, as I said, I can't talk to deer, but it sure seems as if he can't help himself. It's just too darn much. Gotta get after it, yep. But then there as soon as attempts start climbing again, Oh that's done. What about this? What about Because what you've described is something that I think people have seen in the past, where a doe comes in early and there's this moment of chaos around that doll. But the inevitably that doe is going to you know, be out of heat, and then it's going to be back into this waiting period for the rest of the deer to come in. So what if you see this moment of excitement in early to mid October where a dolle comes in early you can tell that doll must be hot because there's bucks chasener. It seems like all of a sudden the rud is hit. But it's October eight or ninth or something like that, and you know it couldn't possibly be the peak of the rud obviously. So I would imagine in that scenario, when you see that happening, you say, Okay, I gotta hunt right now because there's there's something special happening right now. But how long would you imagine that lasting? Would you keep hunting for two or three days as if it's this RUD activity, or would you stop after the first day? Or would you hunt for what do you what's that time frame? I give it about two days generally speaking. For for if I'm if I'm hunting all right here, I'm hunting some public ground and I'm watching a four and a half year old and the whole man if you're watching a four and a half year old on Wisconsin public ground, you're doing something right. I'm watching a four and a half year old chasing around this doll, and if that far and a half year olds chasing them around, chasing that door around, I can all but promise you there's gonna be others chasing them around too. There's gonna be that one three and a half year old in the entire county that happens to live on this ground as well, and a couple two and a half year olds and a handful of one and a half year old and it's gonna be us. It's gonna be fun to watch because she's the only the only show in town, and man does she smell pretty? And that odor is wafting across that land. Um, I'm gonna hunt it probably like well, I will go in there, back to that public ground and I'm gonna hunt that just like it was the rut for in that specific area as close to that zone as I've been seeing this. If there's a betting area right around there, you can bet I'm gonna hunt that tomorrow. O. Um, Because say, I think this is just think, but my experience has done, dude, tend to play this out. When that occurs, you've got about two days of excitement before things calm back down to normal again, just because of just because of the snowball effect that that dough running around out they're created. Because now about that, that likely that four and a half year old bucks more often than not ended up with her. But that three and a half year old was still running around out there. And I'm telling you what, on public ground, I will shoot that three and a half year old every day of the week and say thank you, Can I please han noo? Yep, that's a good buck? Yep? What about this? What if all this you know, we're talking a lot about October. I gotta imagine from past conversations and things I've read, and from a lot of kind of common um a common approach to deer hunting is be careful in October, hunt when you can hunt smart, but be careful not to mess up your spots before November, right because that's when you're gonna get the most activity, the most opportunities, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. What if I told you that November is off limits, you can no longer hunt in November. You can hunt October, do whatever you want, but November it's off limits, can't do anything. How would you hunt differently in October if that was the case, Not that much differently, because quite frankly, um, quite frankly, I think that hunting the same stands. But the stands that are hottest in November generally aren't hottest in October. You know, that's one thing that U I'll tell you what one of the most humbling yet beneficial learning experiences of my entire life was those years consulting for outfitters. You want to put your learning through a long steroids have. Oh, depending on how many outfitters I was working with per year, anywhere from seventy five to two and fifty people telling you what you did wrong. I'll I mean, you better have thick skin. But at the same time, you know, yeah, some of them didn't have a clue what they were talking about, but a lot of them did. And what that actually taught me is that guy who comes or a girl who goes ahead and works a real job and scrimps and saves all day, year or multiple years in many cases, to go on this hunt of a lifetime. He doesn't give a darn about it's October fourteenth and that it's eighty degrees and that the deer aren't moving. Now, all he cares about is this is my dream hunt. So you got to figure out a way to put that guy on a deer or you're not doing your job. Um. What that really ultimately taught me is, honestly, generally there are a few rare exceptions, but generally speaking, the stands I want to hunt in November and not the stands I want to hunt even on a Halloween. Um. So generally speaking, no, I'm not going to go ahead and alter alter my general style. About the only thing I would alter, though, is that that um scrape that's on the down one side of that dough betting area. I'm gonna hunt it a little bit more aggressively. I mean, I'm gonna hunt it anyway either way, but I'm going to hunt it probably a little bit more aggressively than I would otherwise, because otherwise I'm going in there thinking, yep, I want every time I'm go into a stand, I'm for hunting a buck. There's all sorts of stands I crawl up into just for fun. But when I'm going into what I consider a buck stand. I'm not going into it unless I believe that I have a legitimate chance of filling my tag at this spot today. Okay, um, but I am going to be a little bit more aggressive if I don't get to hunt October. I'm sorry November, just because what I do view it as is okay things, my gents. I'm sure this is why you asked me, you know, is what was I doing. My general approach the season is to start very low impact and slowly ramp my impact levels up because Mr Bag will tolerate a heck of a lot more guff for me on November ten than he ever would on October one or December one. Okay, um. That is the one part that I would alter, is I probably would, I know probably about it. I would be a little bit more aggressive and how often I'm hunting some of these higher impact stands, But otherwise my approach really wouldn't change. Let's look at another a pivot off of that a little bit. Let's say you can still hunt November now you're not October. You hunt November, but you've got a world class buck that you're hunting, world class like the biggest buck you've ever had a chance at. It's you know, two some inch seven year old buck. You've been watching him for years. Um, he's he's become this object of obsession. But you have a bunch of neighbors now that know about him too. And you're in a small private let's say eighty acres, and your neighbors all know about this, dear, and they are very good hunters now too. They've got it. They're they're pretty dialed in. Um, and let me let me adjust a little bit. In past years, there hadn't been these great hunters. Now you've got all of a sudden, for whatever freak scenario, all these really good hunters are now surrounding you. So you have a lot of high quality competition for this world class dear. Would that change your typical your typical ramp up you would start carefully, you would ramp up towards November? Or would you say there's always really good hunters. If I don't kill him early, inevitably one of them will. So I'm gonna take aggressive stabs earlier in October, because if I don't get it now, it's not gonna happen at all. What would your thought process be with that kind of scenario, Well, shave fifteen inches off the rack, a year off of his age, and go ahead and make the property considerably bigger. And I wasn't that exact scenario back. Um. I I approached it as I hunted him like I was the only person in this world hunting him because I can control what I can control, but I can't control what they do. I'm not saying that this is right, wrong, or indifferent. I'm just saying this is how I thought it through. Um. I went ahead and I started hunting him on the very Now I was lucky in that, and this is going to play a role in this, Okay. In this case, his core, ay was smack dabb One of his primary core areas was smack dabbing in the center of the property that I'm managing. Okay, I know that's his home base. The last thing in the world in that situation I'm going to do is boot his butt out of his own home base onto the neighbors. Okay. So I started a very very very low impact nibbling away at him, and it wasn't until jeez, it wasn't until I got real aggressive on I think It was November three or four, maybe the fifth where I actually I actually went. I this one. I knew, I believed, I knew where he was betting, okay, And there happens to be a bunch of dough betting just on just to the south of where he's betting. You've been out on these points, then there's this flat that's just prime dough betting. Okay. I went on November three or four five, right around there, on a very windy, wet day. I went in and hold an all day for him in there, and actually he busted me cold. Yeah. I was looking one way with the by knocks, watching a watching a young buck chasing the door around, and I hear a twig snap and I slowly turned. I mean, but it didn't matter. He was sitting there at six yards stare in a hole in me. He was watching me, watching the dough chase, watching the young buck chase around the door. Talk about keeping your eye on the prize, um, Yeah, And then then it's like, okay, now what do I do. I mean, there's he's out of here, guaranteed, no, But do I stay I ain't. There's a chance he could get on something hot and if he gets on something hot, she wants to be here. But yeah, the rest of the cit was really fun. Um, but I that was my one crack. It's like, I'm gonna wait till November to get aggressive on him, and I went right in there after him. And then what I do is I ended up sitting the whole day, never saw him again, um, and got the heck out and all right, I'm I'm done going aggressive now until we get much later, because I feel that I play all these games in my head. I think that I've got one mulligan on a buck like that that I can probably get away with something like that happening once. Now. I'm not saying I'm gonna be able to kill him out of that tree stand now after that, but I'm saying that I don't believe that one encounter was enough to totally blow him out of that area. He has lived here for seven and a well actually he's a seven and a half euro buck, but he's actually lived in this area from the time he was one and a half on and for the last two years he's been the man. He's had the choice, and there's a reason he's choosing this is because that betting area is primal, so I don't think that one encounter is gonna be enough to blow him out of there. But I ain't gonna risk number two. So I went back to nipping more at the edges of what I considered his core area and ended up ended up thankfully, trying to shoot him without taking off the safety on my gun, um during our firearms season. And I say thankfully because I jerked on that trigger so darn hard that I couldn't have even hit the sky if the safety had been off. But it was enough for me. Okay, Because I don't do this type of stuff. I hunt mature books. I rarely said this is the only book I've ever this is the one I'm killing her. I'm not killing nothing period in the story. Um, And I just actually seen him once all season long. And now it's the end of November and there I'm sitting there with a shotgun in my hand, and you're sitting at sitting at a hundred and twenty yards. And as I said, honestly, if I had not forgot to turn off the safety, I guarantee I would have missed him, because I was I was a ball of nerves. But then it's like, okay, just chill your butt the heck out. He has no clue. You just need to get your stuff together in this book is yours. So thankfully he was quartered towards me by that point, so I had to sit there for about two minutes, and it wasn't enough to get my act together and actually make the shot. So what did you you know, going from usually hunting mature bucks to now that year being after the buck? Did you learn anything unique that season from that buck about either you or about what big old special bucks like that do, or how to kill a single deer like that? Was there any big takeaway from that season? The big takeaway is I enjoy hunting bucks a lot more than I enjoy hunting a single box. Well, that is stressful, that is I mean, it was incredibly rewarding. Okay, and there have been there, don't get me wrong. There have been other bucks over the course of the years that's set out to kill, but it hasn't been I am not shooting anything. It's kind of cool as we're talking, I'm sitting there looking at his pedestal out but there's never been another buck in this world. But I said, no, it's it's himmer nothing read end the story. And I figured it would be a one time thing at the time, and yeah, I'm glad I did it. It was. It was a thrillingly frustrating, stressful experience. But no, I have a lot more fun just going out there and hunting the mature bucks period, to be really honest with you, a lot more fun. Yeah, I certainly can relate to the stress part. I end up hunting one single mature buck by default a lot of years because the only one, and that ends up being I don't know, it's prematurely graying my hair. I think. I think I'll say that exact same thing here. What I should say is what I did is I had it in my mind that it didn't matter what the heck else stopped stepped out. That this I mean, And I'm I'll be brutally honest with you, if a step to heck, if or stepped out, you know, fifteen inches smaller than this one. I'm not promising I would have stuck to my guns because of being originally flexible has its benefits, okay, But in my mind it was this ear bust period and the story, you know, and I've been in the situations you're talking about a whole bunch where yeah, you only have one mature bucket the eerie. But I'm telling you, if something even marginally close to it shows up, I'm shooting it and I'm saying thank you. Whereas in this one, I passed up some ridiculous stuff or bucks that there's no way I'm passing up under normal just and I'm glad I did it. But it's it was a one time thing for this guy, because everybody has their own different special things that float there about, and that was well here, I've actually horrific experience when um blue tongue came through one of the properties I was managing back in two thousand third. I mean, I've had blue tongue come through so many I really honestly think on most of the properties I managed not think. I know that we lose five to ten percent of the deer there each year to blue tongue UM, but this was a particularly horrific year and we lost sevent of all the deer on in this area. I'll tell you a lot. You go through a junk like that once and you either go nuts or you learn how to look at things differently. And I'll tell you what that it was a painful lesson, but I learned to create then that you know, this stuff is supposed to be fun. If it's it's up to you to make it fun. So don't do things that stress you out. That's it's hard to argue with right there. Well, and everybody does. I mean, jeez, I know this, I mean I could. I hate to say this, but I almost beat up in a seventy some year old marshmallow that ended up shooting one of the when the last good bucks we had remaining, and it was all because and it had nothing to do with him. It had to do with going from fifteen mature bucks that I mean, I was at gold, this was going to be awesome, to blue tongue in e h D bringing him down to four. And then neighbors. I'm sitting there trying to trying to limp all four of them until next year now because we've just been decimated and the neighbors ended up shooting them all. And no fault for the neighbors from trying out loud. That's one hundred percent. They're right. As a matter of fact, when I went over when they shot the last one I've grabbed a set of Chaz from the buck from the year before, stopped off at the house and went ahead and copied I don't know thirty or forty different trail camera pay cheers of the thing. Over the years, I had hundreds of him. I was planning on given the guy him until he made the mistake of going to one of his buddies saying I shot an absolute runt management four and a half year old that day. Um, and he before I got to congratulate him, I heard him mentioned to one of the Yeah, that one over there would have been a good one if you've given it a few more years. And I lost my I lost my stock. I mean I I was face to face with the seventy some year old guy who went maybe three hundred pounds and didn't look like he'd done a day of worth of physical work his entire life. I got my nose almost touching him, and I'm spitting all over him as him as I am just chewing his butt, secretly praying that he is silly enough to say anything, because if he does, I'm gonna I'm gonna go nuts on him right here in the meat house. I just can't vision, this version of Steve Bartilla. This is new to me. I stress is and am incredibly powerful thing. And thank god, thank god he didn't because it was. It took me about ten seconds after spitting on him to be utterly embarrassed with myself and it's like, my god, you almost beat up this old man for for nothing, and it hadn't. I mean, yeah, he was a jerk for what he said. It was more ignorant than anything, but it had nothing to do with that. It had. This stuff can drive you're nuts if you'll let it. They are not our dear. They are free range dear that can go any darn way they any darn place they want. And you know what, if your neighbors don't have the right to tell you what you can do on your side defense, you don't have the right to tell them. And that guy deserved nothing, no minus to comment. He deserved nothing. But hey, congratulations, here's a chettish, here's a set of sheds from him last year, and here's a whole bunch of photos. Man, that is a great beer. Congratulations. Pressure pressures. Pressure has a way of sucking the fun out of this stuff. Ye know what, That's why we do it because this stuff is I mean, there's more reasons to it than that, but really a big part of us is stuff is supposed to be fun. So don't do stuff that's not fun. That's simple. This is my annual pep talk I have to give myself because I inhevitably get stressed out over the same things, because I get so into it and so focused on my goal that at some point November I have to have this tree stande intervention with myself that I have a come to Jesus meeting with yourself. Yeah, I've I've had. That's exactly what I had. After that, it's like, look, you need to you need to stop stressing out over what you can't control. You cannot control disease, you can't control whether or not the neighbors shoot a deer that you'd rather they didn't. That is one legal You focus on what you can control, because every bit of this stuff that's getting on your nerves is sucking energy and pleasure from this experience, and that energy could actually be used on things that can make a difference. Because sitting here being all upset and worked up about how all these great deer are dying. Yeah, you can do that all day long, and if I give you a quarter, it's still not enough to even get a cup of coffee. It accomplishes nothing. I have to I know it's easier to say than do I. I've been working on this for ten years now and I still don't have it completely down, but I am closer and and generally speaking, Louis men who go three hundred pounds are safe once again in this world. I'm glad to hear that now. I hate to keep harping on the topic of stress, um, but I'm gonna throw a question out that's kind of related to this, with dealing with a stressful situation during the hunting season, which is a miss. Let's say you miss a great big buck you've been chasing all season with let's stay with your bow, um, how do you handle that scenario? Do you do? You take a couple of days off? Do you go fick you? I guess I'll just let you walk me through if it is a straight miss. I didn't want to use that running around the woods, and I'm not worried about whether and I mean I just messed up. I hit a branch in that are, or I rushed the shot, and I'm glad I don't missed him. I go ahead. I tried to replay the scenario as impassionately dispassionately is I possibly can? How did I mess up? What can I learn from this? Learn from it? Literally, fear that less than your brain, and get the heck over it, because obsessing over a misshot isn't doing you any good. Now, if I wounded dear, it's gonna it's not. I'm not going to get over it quite as fast, which quite honestly, I don't think we should, because hey, it's our actions that went aheadn't did that. But what I'm gonna do is I'm going to exhaust every possibility of actually at every legitimate, reasonable possibility of retrieving that deer that I can. And one thing I would say is I do think and I don't think it's out of laziness. I think it's honestly out of ignorance and ignorance for some reason to become a bad word in our in our society to but guess what, every single one of us are ignorant. Ignorance just means we don't know something as much as we should about something. And that's there's no shame in admitting that. Um, but I do think it's more ignorance than anything else. But a lot of people are way too fast to give up on trying to find that deer that they wounded. UM, mainly, as I said, just because I don't think they know what to do. But the systematic grid searches checking every single ditch, check every fence crossing, or every log that they would jump for blood spatter on the other side. And I'll tell you what, when it comes to finding wounded deer, if you've got a do not quit no matter what attitude, you're going to find a heck of a lot more than than most people are. Yeah, that's a tough, tough scenario being but you're right. The best thing to do is is to try a little harder. Every time you start feeling down, just keep on keeping on and be as thorough as you humanly possibly can. I would hate to guess how many trees people have walked by that are trying to find their dear and their dear lane right and has literally crawled into that tree top and died or down in the check every one of those ditches. That's so often it's pressed up against the bank to the point where you can barely even see it when you're looking. But yeah, thorough and don't quite has a lot to do with success. So so we'll move on from the down earth side of hunting, um, the part that we don't like to have to spend too much time thinking about and hopefully never have to, although inevitably those those things do happen. But let's let's move to the best part of the hunting season for a lot of people, which is the Rut. We like to think of it as the super Bowl. It's that they we've looked forward to all year. It's it's Christmas in November. Um, A couple of scenarios to throw at you in November. One of them is is something that I asked a lot of folks about, and it's something that I'm always constantly, um finding myself wondering about. Is is when to make adjustments during the run. So let's say you are hunting in a primo location it's I don't know, November three, four or five, six, somewhere in that ballpark and you see the mature buck. Let's say we we don't have a bunch of these things running around we don't have seven or eight or nine mature bucks. We've got one maybe two. And the buck er after I should clarify that property when I was talking about was stupid big. But anyway, yes, so this is a smaller property. We've got one maybe two, and we see one of these big mature bucks step out out of range I don't know, seventy yards or something like that, and he's he's kind of cruising. He cruises by and just piers. There are some people who would say, you should relocate where you saw that buck. You should go and hunt there the very next day, or even some people if it's early in the day, they might pick up and move there in the middle of the day and hunt there in the evening. Other guys would say, no, I'm sticking to my guns. I'm in this spot for a reason. Eventually that buck or another mature buck will come through this spot. How do you react to a sighting of mature buck like that just out of range? Which which option would you take? I use a three strike rule. If I see the same book that I want to shoot, or two different books that I want to shoot, do the same thing twice the third time, I'd better be sitting there one time. I don't think for me personally, I think reacting off of one sighting is just too darn reactionary. And I mean, dear do things all the time once. I mean every day they do something that that they don't normally do once. You know, I can't guarantee that, but I think that's a pretty darn safe bat. Okay, Um, but when you see either the same buck do the same thing twice, or two different mature bucks do the same thing twice, well, there's probably now I start taking that seriously. Now I'm gonna know, I'm gonna shift. Okay, Now, what about this slight adjustment? What if what you what if you saw that morning you're hunting and that mature buck is chasing a dough and you see him chasing this dough into a betting area. Maybe oftentimes there's a belief that sometimes they will see like a circling eventually happen where that dough will kind of take that buck in a circle and they'll pass through there. Again, would you make a move immediately or very soon after in that kind of case or is it still the same three strike role? If I if I'm going to stand over there at that betting area, I'm crawling out right there, walking a over and crawling up. If I don't have a stand there, I'm not gonna run. I'm not going to yank this stand shifted over there and reset it because to me, that is way, way, way too much risk, you know, the odds of being able to get away, to be able to get away at I'm guessing it's like eight nine o'clock in the morning where we're just seeing this whole thing play out. Now at eight nine o'clock in the morning, I'm gonna yank my stand now. I don't use If I had a climber, that might be a different story. But I hunt out of out of hands and not climbers, just because of a few bad experiences in my youth with Baker climbers um which were one percent in my fault. But I still doesn't change the fact that jeez, I went down way too many trees with them way too fast to be to ever really be completely comfortable in them. It's all in my head. But um ah d there than as I said, if I was a climbing tree stand hunter, I I probably would shift right then and there. But if I don't have a tree stand there. I'm not going to go ahead and set up a tree stand fifty yards off to the east on the edge of that bedding area right now, because geez, that buck is chasing that door around there and adds they're really good that I'm gonna get busted by something trying to pull it off, and geez, I just went ahead and became my own worst enemy. So it's kind of it's what all these types of deciations for me are balancing odds and what there's And I wish I couldn't say that this this is the line that where it flips. I can't. It's just in my Okay, what do I have to gain? What do I have to lose? Does this makes sense? I go through that no us times every set. I mean, when I'm watching that buck chase that dough, I'm going through that. Okay, Do I try to go ahead and call her call him off, that dough He's got what she wants when he wants already, that dough is not going to be happy with hearing the calling going on here. M getting out. Let Let's just let this play out. Let's let it play out in the see because I think the odds of it going south are too high to take this risk. Their heads a straight away. Now, Okay, I'm pretty darn sure she's not planning on coming back. All right now, you throw the book at him, because what do I got to lose? Those are the type that's the type of stuff that's always going through my head. Um what you kind of answered this for that scenario. But I'm just curious if we put it in more general generalities here. Lots of times there are folks that during the rut will hunt one kind of location in the morning and they want to hunt a different kind of location for the second half of the day or for the evening hours. Maybe they want to be closer to a doe feeding area or something for the during that rut time period. If you were going to make a stand change during the rut and you're hunting, let's say you're hunting pretty much the whole day, but you want to shift locations at some point, all of the things being equal, what time would you think is the safest time typically to make that move? Because I always worry about this because during the rut you do have this increased midday movement of mature bucks. Cruising. So I'm always trying to wonder, like, what is the possible lowest point of of risk during the day to make that shift. I I'll be honest with you, I look at it more, not so much from the risk standpoint, but from the reward standpoint. Um, I if I've been Okay, So here's a very real six scenario. It's November seventh. I'm gonna be hunting. Then I'm going to get in early. I'm going to hunt it down one side of a dough betting area back in the timber. Okay, Well, once you get to that last hour or so, last hour and a half before dark, and no betting areas were really worth a dark because the dos are gone. Mr Bigs, no idiot. He realizes that, oh yeah, about two hours before dark, the does get up and they start me and ring around doing a little browsing in the woods as they slowly make their way to h to whatever food source. I mean, if you're up in the big woods of the Big Woods or wherever, it might be a clear cut, or if you're down in I would's probably an egg field. But either way, he realizes that they generally get up about this time. They generally started me and during their way to to the food plot, They've generally arrived at the food plot at such and such a time, no different thing. You understand what the daily events are that go on in your home. So does Mr Big. This is his dying house. Okay, So at that point I don't want to be sitting on that dope bedding area anymore. But I also understand that I gotta beat I gotta get out of here before everything really starts going two nuts in the woods. Otherwise I'm gonna be running the gauntlet getting to my understand. Now, if I am running the gauntlet getting to my other stand, I'm not going to just go ahead and do a normal walk. I'm going to essentially still hunt my way over to the other stand, not believing that I'm going to shoot something, but just believing that, oh, there's a deer up in a boat, and I really want to see them before they see me. And every now and then something really weird happens. And at one of the bucks I'm looking at as we speak, I sat shot at twenty yards on the ground. I walked up to him, and when I got thirty yards away, he crouched down really hard in his bed, and I couldn't shoot him there and took ten more steps. He stood up for me, and I shot him. That's the only buck I can ever say I did something like that with. But you know, and I was glad I had a bowl, and I was glad I had my hair win the bowl. And I'm glad I came to fuldraw even when I didn't think there was any way this was really going to happen. So I do try to keep you try to keep my options open, just because every now and then a blue moon happens. Okay, But generally speaking, I do a stock to the stand just just because I don't want to explode stuff. If I don't have to, um, but i'd want to be I'd probably make that switch about a good honest at least three hours before dark. The one thing I have noticed over the years in my experience listens a lot to do with outfitters. Outfitters generally speaking, try to hunt their clients as late in the morning as they possibly can, and then the clients get back, get something to eat, blah blah blah blah blah, maybe take a little nap, and then end up getting out with two hours left in the afternoon, I would much much much rather be if I'm sitting on a this who gonna sounds stupid, But if I'm sitting especially on an inwards food plot, but even on egg feels where I can see back into the woods, I end up seeing a lot more mature box activity or to two hours before dark than I do those last two hours. And I do think, I do think that a lot of people, especially with more without fitters than anything because the scenario I described, but end up getting only to their after your news stands during the rut way too darn. Wait, so it's probably gonna be about four hours before dark I'll shift from the betting area on down to the food plot or hunting food in some way, shape or form, because really, when I'm doing some hunting dolls Mr Vegas Hunting does so guess what I want to hunt, because if I hunt the same thing he is, I'm going to intercept his patterns. And a lot of people think that mature bucks don't have patterns during the rut, but I'm telling you I've a lot of them. I think, cling to patterns more tightly during the rut than any other time. Of year. I remember talking with you about this a few years ago, um, and how you had been seeing how they'll have these core areas typically associated with Doll family groups that will kind of cycle through typically checking these spots where they've come to find that, yes, there are going to be does here. Um, but that was probably five years ago. Has your thought process or your beliefs around patterning deer with a is that evolved at all over the last five years? Are you just anything forgotten to be more and more? I mean at first, when I first thought I figured this out, oh, I I was more than a little bit leery because everyone and I do mean everybody else as oh fair, oh you can't. You can't patent box during the run. I mean I've heard that my whole day life. But then just so much of this to me is just it doesn't pass the common sense test, just common flip and sense. White tails are not that complicated of animals, And frankly, when people try to make them complicated, I honestly believe it's either they don't have a clue what the act they're talking about, or they're trying to impress somebody. Um, They're they're just they're trying to survive, nothing more, nothing less, and they like it when they're comfortable and half be at the same time. UM, I'll be brutally honest with you. I forgot what the heck we're talking about. I had asked if you're if your thoughts on patterning during the run changed at all. Mr Big knows his house just like we do. Um, just like our dogs are pets. Do you know he knows where these where these family groups are most likely going to be during any period of a twenty four hour period he's trying to breathe these does Do you think he's checking the dope when he is not actively breathing a dough? Do you think he's checking that dope betting area during the daylight when they're there more days than not. Of course he is, because he's trying to find hot does if that's not a pattern, I don't know what the heck is you? Is it possible that, oh jeez uh different mature buck ended up wandering in He got on a Estra's doe, took him over his home range line and took him to an area he's never been before. He got done with her started headed back home. Oh, I picked up the scent of another one. Now next thing you know, he's three miles away from home and he's walking through this betting area and man, he sees the buck you're hunting and he drives him the heck off to stuff like that ever happened? Of course it does. And early season, when the farmer goes out and cuts the wood right around his field all day, does that impact defeating that night? Sure it can, especially if he decides to do it until dark. Now there's all. And when a coyote goes into goes into Mr Big betting area on October three and boots him out and he goes you know, ends up shifting to a different betting spot he's comfortable with a mile away. Did that changes patterns? Of course it did. All sorts of things can alter a bucks patterns. But if stopping and checking that food source because he knows those are gonna be there after dark in these betting areas during the day, because he knows those are going to be there during the day, If that's not a pattern, what the heck is? And I'll tell you I get, I can I have. This is where trail cameras and especially Jeez for those who can afford him or conics. Trail cameras are God's gift to hunting in that when you have picture after picture after picture after picture of the same mature box checking the same food sources and the same betting areas during the run, really hard not to call that a pattern, isn't it? Howd argue that? And that's what the beautiful thing that the thing that has But I flat out love about running the ridiculous number of trail cameras that I do is there are so many things people are saying out there that this is the way it is. I'll tell you what, pictures don't why? And I've got picture after picture after picture of mature bucks doing all sorts of things we're told over and over and over they just playing, don't do? Do you run your cameras? Do you let me rephrase this, which do you find more valuable having your trail cameras on photo mode and you don't need to touch them or go bother them for weeks and weeks and weeks on because the battery stcard lasts a long time, or having your cameras on video mode where you can maybe get more information but fills up the st card much more quickly. Batteries run down much more quickly. You have to go in them more often. Uh. Both, but for different reasons when it comes to UH, when it comes to just playing I ding and inventorying the standing stock of white tails on that ground at any given time, I really like pictures because I'll go ahead and get four five, I'll set it to rapid shot burst and I'll get four or five, six, seven, eight pictures. Uh, there's one buck and I can zoom in, I can study, I can do all this stuff, um that I can't do with video. When it comes to understanding white tail behavior, Oh, man, does it ever fuck battery life and card space? Going ahead of setting setting your camera to HD mode for two is it's continue with shooting and oh we can get to be painful going through some of those sometimes when you got fifty, when you got fifty chips, you're going through of the But man, if you want to learn, I'm to this day by far the best teacher I have ever had when it comes to hunting or white tails, because they don't know how to lie, they don't know how to deceive you. All they do is they go out and they live their life, and you sit there and you watch them, and they will teach you everything you need to know. I like, I studied here, and the videos are invaluable for that. But that's how, that's how I've been able to put a whole bunch of stuff together. Like, Okay, there's a picture of that buck. That didn't tell me much. All I know right now is that wait a minute, he is quite a ways out of his normal area. But I've got it on video mode instead, So oh, there goes just I just caught the flash of a dough flying through and oh, here's that buck right behind here. Ah, so I bet you he went ahead and came across a dough whose home range overlapped his. He got honor, And that's why he's actually over here. It's not because he's coming over here looking for a girl. He's actually had a girl leader him here. And then um, something like this, Jesus, nasty, nasty eight point on one of the properties I managed years ago. Just an absolute proof of a bully of a buck um seven and a half years old, built like a brickout house, and he was not shy about throwing his weight around. And I go ahead and shoot him one night and by midnight that same night, three and a half year old who had spent a ridiculous amount of time over here. Now I have video footage of him getting this butt handed to him two weeks before, by this eight point and now last six hours after he shot that buck is back? Is that a coincidence? And then that happens a third time in the fourth video mode? Is my greatest teacher. I need to h I need to better utilize that. I've always been hesitant to do it because of the better and st card implications. But I've been continuously getting more and more becoming more aware of what I'm missing out on. So you probably just put the nail on the coffin there for me, Steve, I gotta do it good, because the big thing that so many people do is they look at you. They look at their trail camera data. Not there are many people actually study it. Where was that buck coming from, where is he going, what's he doing? Why is he doing it now? That type of stuff, and really think when it comes to I can't hammer this enough when it comes to utilizing trail cameras. If you want intel on high impact locations, first ask yourself how can I get that saint, How can I get close to that same level of impact intel from a lower impact location? Um? And then when I when I actually do go back in there and set up cameras, there's the second gun season closes. The second the last gun season closes, that's when I shift my cameras to high high impact locations. I really want to figure out or when my tag is full of whichever occurs first. And can you explain why that is? Um, just because I don't want Okay, So after deer season, after gun season is over, I'm no longer anywhere near is worried about the managing aspect of deer. Okay, there's not that many of us out there anymore in late season, Okay, And frankly, it's gun season where you lose the majority of the deer that you're trying to limp along another year. So as soon as guns the last gun season for the year ends, I'm not talking about if they have a special do season at the end of season that I don't count. But um, in most states it goes firearms and muzzleloader hunting. Once muzzleloader hunting is over, that is when I'll seriously start to consider putting cameras into high impact areas that I want to understand what's going on back there. If I still have a tag or or this is a client it's ground and they have tags, they're still hunting. I'll wait till season is done or they fill their tang to go ahead and move in. But that is when I actually get my into Keep in mind, as you know, and I'm sure more than a few people are thinking as they say this, Yes, dear patterns do change over time, but generally speaking, they're going to use the topography of the exact same way no matter what time of year it is. They generally used the same travel corridors when they're trying to get from point A to point B in summer versus spring versus fall. You know that type of stuff. Speaking of that, I want you gotta wrap this up. I've kept you here for about nineteen hours. Your day has been completely awashed now because we've been talking bucks for so long. But I do want to end with one last sort of a rapid fire set of questions that relates to what you just suggested. Their little bit as far as how dear behavior or movements will shift throughout the year I want to I'm gonna present a date. I'm gonna give you a date, and then I would just like to hear from you, like the first thing that comes to mind the top hypothetical stand location for that date. I realized there's a lot of other outside variables, but just think of a hypothetical scenario that would be perfect for that date, and and kind of briefly explain the stand site for that date, and then only give you another date and on I list off a handful of dates throughout the season, and I'm just curious to see how your hypothetical stand setups would shift. And then we'll wrap it up right after that. So, first date, October one, Where are you hunting food? Food? Or the trails tour from UM at this point, Mr, big strength of that and up for the hell it's about to come. Best food? What would your top food source at that point? Early season? L self was really good. Clover can be really good UM and surprisingly to most people if if you're using the right strains, borassicas can be a really really powerful early season food source. UM, if you happen to have that one oak Ridget's drop and that's a really good spot. If you're hunting the big woods, those metals and those uh, those clear cut regrowths are both really really hard to beat that time here October twelve. It depends on the temperature. UM. If it's the temp drop like you were describing earlier, I'm hunting the rut, I'm hunting doze um dough betting areas in the morning and the food source and they're dominating in the afternoon. And if that buck has been consistently coming in an hour after dark, you give me that twenty degree temp drop, I'm expecting to shoot him a for half hour before dark right on that same food source. And don't bet again to me, because that happens a surprisingly high percentage of time. UM. In that is the exact scenario. When he's coming in consistently a half hour to two hours after dark, and now all of a sudden you get that twenty plus degree tempt drop, I'm playing it on him being there a half hour before dark that day. UM. If it's not a scenario like that, I'm probably hunting a low impact spot just to get the fixed of sitting at a tree stand, but not wanting to mess things up unless I have intel on a specific buck doing something. If I do at any point, I'm I'm jumping oct scrapes back in the woods, preferably in the morning. November four, um door groups, door groups in the funnels uh or the funnels UM separating them or the thickest, nastiest cover I can possibly find, or the dose feeding primary food source in the afternoons November same thing, December seven, December seven. In the mornings, I actually late season morning huntings to me stink in every way except for setting up on dough groups and trying to catch Mr Big going after going after a dough fon UM. So in the morning, might be hunting a dough group in the afternoon. I'm sitting food. Now, when I'm saying I'm sitting food, that doesn't always mean I'm sitting on food, but it's food related in one way, shape or form. I mean you're sitting on the food source, or I'm setting a travel corridor leading to that food source. And quite Le's lead. The decision between the two is going to be made on based on how confident I am that Mr Biggs may show up before dark. The less confident I am that he's going to show up before dark, the closer to the betting area I'm trying to be. Do things change it all in January seven, one month later? Um No, it's the exact same approach for me. The only thing is is the later you get, the more and more food becomes king. And how if there is a if there's a secret to trophy buck hunting, to mature buck hunting, it's a late season so much better than most people realize, assuming you've got an area that's low pressure. And of course, yes, and thank you because you are. If you're talking, if you're talking late season on public land and in northern Wisconsin, good Dane, look body, because you see a squirrel. It's been a good set. Um No, I'm I'm talking out. I'm talking about hunting mature bucks in the mature buck meccas, that is late seasons. I actually learned a couple of things. I learned doing trophybuck profiles for North American white tail of years and years and years ago. A ridiculous amount of private landowners are killing their biggest bucks in December and January. The other thing I learned is when it comes to the surprising thing is a approximately half of the big buck stories I did were from people hunting public ground or what may as well be public ground because their uncle tent lets everybody in anybody into hunt. And the thing that I found so fascinating about those is the overwhelming majority of bucks that are killed in those scenarios are killed by kids and first time hunters because they don't know any damn better. Now, they end up going places that you and I aren't and mark because we're too darn But how does a buck actually get to be five and a half six and a half years old in this scenario like that? Well, they get to be that old by not doing what they're supposed to do, and we actually get to be too darn smart to be able to shoot them, If that makes any sense. I think we we often chase our tails right into uh tag sandwiches oftentimes. Oh you darn right, that is the truth. Well, Steve, as always, this was this is a blast. I'm sufficiently more excited than I thought even could be, and ready to get going on stout scouting some new public land last night. Got eyes on a couple of shooters, so I've got all sorts of excitement roiling within me right now. Um, for people that want to learn more from me, who enjoyed this, who want to get more from you. I know you've got a lot of things out there. Where can they go to to see what you're up to right now? To get your books or your videos or your articles or anything like that. I'll be brually honest with you. And this is gonna sound so cheesy, but hopefully you know me well enough know that I actually am the cheeseball with is me? Um, I'm if you don't mind for a second, I'm some kid raised by a divorce mother from northern Wisconsin whose home room teacher but his wrestling coach twenty bucks, wouldn't even graduate high school. I'm not supposed to be here. I had no idea how tough this was supposed to be to break into this field or any of this stuff. And I sure didn't do it because I am so unbelievably smart. I did it because so many the people that are listening to this stuff when I had them, threw me on their shoulders and carried me to the dance. I am extremely lucky in that I've been able to I don't even live my am dream o heay beyond the wildest dreams I've had. I'm as we speak, I'm managing almost ten thousand acres of dirt. For dear, I'm not supposed to do that, Okay. The only reason I'm doing this is because so many of the people that are listening empowered me to do this. So I'm finally at a point in my career that I don't need to make a lot of money anymore. And I don't need to I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm in solid middle class as anybody, and it will never be more than that, but I'm in a position where I'm going to remain solidly middle class. I'm trying to do. What I'm trying to do these days is to give away as much stuff of this that I can for free as I possibly can. Um every weekday on Facebook Steve Bartella Outdoors, I'm doing a free post um that is. I mean, jeez, I went ahead. Last year I wrote an entire book, one chapter a day on Facebook. And don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge fan of Facebook in any way, shape or form. The guy gets on my nervous to the max, but it is a tremendous platform to share stuff for free. And that's really what I'm doing now. I'm trying to I'm on a essentially a thank you to her. I'm trying to say thanks to everybody. I simply put Mark, I can't believe that I've lived lived this life and it hasn't been me. It's been the people that are listening. And I'm trying to say thanks. And I'm in a position where I can, so I'm just giving out. I am doing a whole bunch of work for Deer and Deer Hunting. Um. They went ahead and converted the growing, big, t grown, big online show I've done for six years now into a television show. UM. This year, I'm actually going to uh this year, I'm actually going to It's gonna be on Fresh. We're gonna break down properties on how to uh, how we actually set how I set them up. Um. But Deer and Deer Hunting Facebook page has a ridiculous amount of my stuff on there for free, and then I write exclusively for their magazine these days. But mostly what I'd really encourage people do is between YouTube and Facebook, you can get so much of my stuff for free it's not even funny. And I'm not saving anything for books. Or anything like that. I'm doing my best to say thanks to all those that brought me to the dance and made it so that the stupid kid from northern Wisconsin got to his literally lifted beyond his dream. I mean, I get paid to play in the damn woods month that is, that is a pretty earn good dream to have right there into to live. I'm right there with you, Steve Well. That's not lost on me that it was not me who brought me to the Well. I can tell you for for myself and all the other listeners, we certainly appreciate what you're putting out there and what you're sharing with us because because it's helping so so thank you for that my pleasure. The one thing I would say is, take from me and everyone else out there anything you see a value, and for the love of God, throw away the rest. If you don't think it applies to you, don't use it. I can promise, I guarantee right now as we speak something I believe five years from now I'm gonna look back and say, how could have I ever been so simple? I just don't know what it is yet we all are learning. None of us have all the answers. And even when we even if somebody does have all the answers, all they have are all the answers from their scenario. Every single scenario is different. Trust yourselves, you guys and girls. You're the experts on your land, not us, and certainly certainly not a bunch of overpaid quote unquote experts. But never ever, ever hunt deer remotely like you do. That's that's some perfect wisdom to end this one, I think, Steve, because you're absolutely right. You gotta take the good, leave the bad or irrelevant fier scenario, test it, see what works for you, Iterate, learn, and keep on keeping on. And if you do that long enough, someday we all might be half the deer hunter the Steve Bartila is right, No, you'll be pen of times do you do that sometimes, deer hunter? Alright, Steve, well this is great. I appreciate it, and uh, let's chat again soon. Sounds great, my man, sounds great, And good luck to everybody out there this year. If nothing else, please remember the most important things and all this is that you don't come home in a body bag and that you actually have fun. Very true, all right, and that's a rap I hope you enjoyed this one. I I just I just really enjoyed chanting with Steve. He's genuine, he is a real person, and he throws a lot of great information out there for all of us to to take in and enjoy. And he's very generous with that. So make sure you check out what he's got going on. He didn't plug him, but I will plug his books for him. He's got some great books. Big Buck Secrets is when I'm like, in particular, I'm actually rereading that right now. UM check them all out and until next time, thank you, and stay wired to hunt.